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A wonderful illustration showing how much public space we’ve handed over to cars

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 74,265 ✭✭✭✭L1011




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,169 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    The fact is that there are certain people like yourself who need a vehicle capable of towing.

    I mentioned farmers because they have strong lobbying power and that's the reason big pick ups won't be taxed into oblivion.

    You need something to replace the Q5 but advice on what to get would be off topic here and probably not appreciated by some.

    Check out the motors forum and you'll get some advice.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A 3 year old is the latest victim, rest in peace




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭jconn


    Anyone have some advice on flying into Liverpool from Dublin, and train/bus down to Old Trafford with a couple of kids, is it straightforward, or expensive? Seems like a relatively short hop

    thanks



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    not sure if this is the thread to ask in.



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  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    This is a horrific statistic made all the worse by the response from relevant agencies being little more than "thoughts and prayers"




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,761 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    What would be a better response? In recent history responses have had very little in general to do with the accidents that gave the response

    In Dungarvan, Waterford a few years ago they reduced the limit on one of the roads from 100km/h to 80km/h because some lads were drunk and drugged off their head

    Another good example is the infamous "Ciaran Tracey" law. When a drunk driver was 17 times the legal limit so we decide to reduce it from one pint to half a pint.

    They wouldn't have been much help before the incidents



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    What would be a better response? to be trite, better policing.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As stated, better policing, but also

    • safer infrastructure (to reduce conflict opportunities between pedestrians/cyclists and motor vehicles)
    • design safe systems (to physically prevent dangerous driving through design)
    • reduced speed limits (to enable better outcomes where conflicts do occur)
    • automated enforcement (to address habitual offenders resulting in loss of licence)
    • reporting option (to allow for road users to provide video/photo evidence of dangerous actions)
    • stricter sentencing (walking away scott free after killing/maiming someone should be a rare outcome, not the norm)
    • higher points for infractions (to encourage safer behaviour)

    and so on

    Basically take it more seriously than "oh that's unfortunate.....so anyway"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,322 ✭✭✭✭fits


    I have heard that anyone losing control of their car in wet conditions on the motorway in Germany is convicted of dangerous driving.


    taking the macho culture out of driving would help too. People still brag about how fast they drive.

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  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Could we be about to see penalty points increase?

    Maybe, but I don't anticipate it happening quickly

    The chairwoman of the Road Safety Authority is seeking increased penalty points for dangerous driving as it emerged there have been 600 life-changing crashes so far this year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,761 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    • Safer infrastructure (to reduce conflict opportunities between pedestrians/cyclists and motor vehicles)

    Great idea in theory but usually results in roads being narrowed to make way for cycle lanes and wider footpaths, thereby increasing the potential for car-on-car collisions. Cycle lanes are also regularly littered with broken glass and aren't very well maintained which results in cyclists then using said (narrowed) road

    • Design safe systems (to physically prevent dangerous driving through design)

    Motorways and upgraded road in general? Also a great idea

    • Reduced speed limits (to enable better outcomes where conflicts do occur)

    Most accidents are caused by people breaking the speed limit already, reducing limits won't make them more likely to obey the law

    • Automated enforcement (to address habitual offenders resulting in loss of licence)

    Such as speed vans in locations where people can kill themselves and others by speeding? Yes but needs to be properly enacted, I recall when speed vans first started appearing on our roads and people complained they were on safe stretches of road. The reason given was to not endanger the person working in the speed van... So what's the point?

    Currently our country has 2 roads where average speed cameras are deployed, one is the port tunnel where most accidents aren't caused by speeding and the other is a motorway! Great idea, wrong locations!

    • Reporting option (to allow for road users to provide video/photo evidence of dangerous actions)

    Great idea, I can't argue against that one. Wouldn't work for speeding but would work for parking and miss-use of roads

    • Stricter sentencing (walking away scott free after killing/maiming someone should be a rare outcome, not the norm)

    I'm not sure that is the norm, do you have evidence of lenient sentencing in such cases?

    • Higher points for infractions (to encourage safer behaviour)

    The problem seems to be worse since we increased the penalty point by 50% and doubled the fines. I refer to my earlier point that law breakers are going to be law breakers regardless of the punishment

    Also worthy to note 472 deaths in 1997, 396 in 2005, 155 last year (2022) so overall we are not doing badly



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    would need a source on that. could be a simple case of someone who lost control of their car on the motorway in the wet, was done for dangerous driving; not necessarily that they were done specifically because of those circumstances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,322 ✭✭✭✭fits


    My source is pretty good but I can’t name it 😀

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,761 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    There were 1,292 serious injuries last year caused by car crashes (note, not necessarily life changing) over 2,000 in 1997 so we are getting better in that respect as well. 600 in the first 8 months would average to be 910 for the year if nothing changes... That's a good drop

    Important to remember as well there are many more LHD cars on our roads in the last 12 months between Ukranian refugees and mainland tourists, I know I've seen them. That can only be worse for our stats



  • Posts: 573 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Road stats won't improve until there is proper policing of the roads. Speed vans and Garda cars parking behind bridges on the motorway is just a money making exercise.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    This is in part due to the Gardai and the State with minimal effort made in dealing with road traffic issues, the State not getting a grip of planning and not modernising transport infrastructure, zero improvement in cycle lanes and simply completely seperating them motor vehicles.

    There seems to be an interest in catching out people a relatively insignificant speed over the limt on wide open roads, but nothing much done about other aspects of dangerous driving. Given the expected excuse that Gardai cant be everywhere and dont have the manpower, Id suggest automating speeding monitoring on certain routes to an integrated average speed monitoring system and even allowing uploading or reporting of instances from dashcams for dangerous driving/overtaking (unlikely speeding would hold any water unless caught by an official and calibrated detection device).

    Lately (in the last year) I have seen horrifically careless drivers overtaking, on double white lines, driving up bus lanes all typically at speed, with more than half being N plate drivers. That said, many drivers are completely reckless with overtaking where it could cause a collision. Saw one car blatantly driving around a sweeping left turning bend, overtaking me and another vehicle in front of me and persisted towards an oncoming vehicle.

    As for the OP, how much public space is delegated to cars, there isnt an alternative, and it would be great if there was, in reality, where homes have been built and people live, it is necessary (essential) for people to have cars, so there needs to be a road network. The OP may live somewhere it isnt essential to have a car to get around, others arent in that situation. Just because the road network may not be used by them all the time doesnt mean they dont need it. Vehicles bring goods (food being an example) to high density areas too, public transport isnt necessarily available for all locations or isnt practical or the cost of accomodation at a persons destination isnt available or cost effective, so a person may need their own transport to get to and from a specific location (work/college etc).

    Just because a lot of space (necessarily so) is dedicated to cars and other vehicles, does not mean we cant have other options available, such as dedicated cycling lanes, park and rides & public transport to match. It isnt available because our National bodies arent integrated or following any national plan.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    • Safer infrastructure (to reduce conflict opportunities between pedestrians/cyclists and motor vehicles)

    Great idea in theory but usually results in roads being narrowed to make way for cycle lanes and wider footpaths, thereby increasing the potential for car-on-car collisions. Cycle lanes are also regularly littered with broken glass and aren't very well maintained which results in cyclists then using said (narrowed) road

    Road narrowing is part of the design changes I mentioned in another point. We already do this at the entry point to every town and village across the country.

    Litter is not a reason not to provide protected infrastructure

    • Design safe systems (to physically prevent dangerous driving through design)

    Motorways and upgraded road in general? Also a great idea

    Apologies, I should have expanded on this. Examples would including lane narrowing, chicanes, speed bumps, canopy cover etc etc etc. All design changes which physically prevent high speeds. Traffic calming is what we typically call it

    • Reduced speed limits (to enable better outcomes where conflicts do occur)

    Most accidents are caused by people breaking the speed limit already, reducing limits won't make them more likely to obey the law

    Read my point again. The objective is to ensure better outcomes where conflicts occur. Simply put, being hit at 30k is a lot better than being hit at 50k

    • Automated enforcement (to address habitual offenders resulting in loss of licence)

    Such as speed vans in locations where people can kill themselves and others by speeding? Yes but needs to be properly enacted, I recall when speed vans first started appearing on our roads and people complained they were on safe stretches of road. The reason given was to not endanger the person working in the speed van... So what's the point?

    Currently our country has 2 roads where average speed cameras are deployed, one is the port tunnel where most accidents aren't caused by speeding and the other is a motorway! Great idea, wrong locations!

    I have zero problem with rolling out camera enforcement everywhere

    AI can take care of a lot of the grunt work


    • Reporting option (to allow for road users to provide video/photo evidence of dangerous actions)

    Great idea, I can't argue against that one. Wouldn't work for speeding but would work for parking and miss-use of roads

    and dangerous overtaking etc

    • Stricter sentencing (walking away scott free after killing/maiming someone should be a rare outcome, not the norm)

    I'm not sure that is the norm, do you have evidence of lenient sentencing in such cases?

    Attempted murder? nah, suspended sentence

    A motorist who deliberately drove through a cyclist on a Dublin road has been given a three-year suspended sentence and ordered to pay his victim €10,000.

    CCTV footage played in Dublin Circuit Criminal Court showed Sean Kearns driving straight at cyclist Marcelo Valencia, causing him to come crashing off his bicycle on the middle of a busy road five years ago.

    There's hundreds of examples if you want to google for more



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,451 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Higher penalties that aren't enforced won't help us.

    Except that for lots of people, there are alternatives. Very high percentages of car journeys are trips that are easily walked or cycled, under 4km.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    You claim, Have you got any figures on that? lots of people? where? how many? who did a survey andd how comprehensive was it? or is it just your opinion?

    Lets have some examples, what kind of journeys? how do you know it would be easily done by walking or cycling.

    Its easy to just throw that comment out there and just have it accepted as fact, Im not even sure how you are determining what others should do or how its better for them? I think if there is a suitable comprehensive infrastructure the people who can benefit from it will use it. Cycling would be impractical for me now, even if it was, I simply wouldnt cycle anywhere as its not safe, it appears there are even instances of ignorant drivers who should be banned from driving imo who have targeted cyclists.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    which goes back to effective policing; and ending this notion of driving being a right.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,451 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's not a 'claim', it is the CSO's National Transport Survey;

    Which is fairly comprehensive...

    There are indeed ignorant drivers out there. The more people that cycle, the safer cycling gets.



  • Posts: 3,330 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    An Garda Síochána must police our roads correctly. They don't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,169 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Once you comply with all laws and regulations driving is a right.



  • Posts: 15,801 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ryan to bring proposal for reduced speed limits to cabinet

    Road redesign could also be on the cards

    He said that another way would be to redesign Irish roads to make them safer, as there has been an increase in the number of deaths among pedestrian and motorcyclists.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that's quite a caveat!

    once you're 17 or over. and once you've passed your driving test. and once you've got insurance. and once the car is taxed. and once the car is legally roadworthy.

    not quite the same as the right to practice whatever religion you choose, is it? or the right to cycle, say?

    driving is a privilege, not a right.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    Again, you are throwing stuff out there like its a fact, just because more people cycle doesnt mean it will get safer, unless something is done to make it safer, which I havent seen any susbtantial changes in decades, if anything it is worse than before or has ever been.

    Very easy to tell someone to walk 2-4km when a return journey would be up to half an hour, maybe they are picking a few children up at a time from school, which is very likely what many of these journeys are, its quick, convenient and safer to travel at a safe speed by car as it is to walk around many towns streets or up unlit roads. Is the green party expecting pensioners to walk to mass or do a local shop on small country roads?

    I looked at that article which says 51% of people surveyed said they would drive a short distance, but it still only represented 20% of all journeys (which the article goes out of its way to highlight), which tells me that half of people will drive a short distance if they think they need to (a survey taken in the Winter), but it only represents a small fraction of their personal journeys overall. So the article headline is very misleading which makes it sound like more than half of short journeys overall are under 2km when its only a fifth. Walking still represents a high proportion of shorter journeys people take, Im surprised its 44%, which is fairly substantial. Also, while the article says it should take 20 minutes to walk that distance, I have calculated they have rounded that down a bit, with another 20mins at least to return. I cant see most people who have an alternative of picking up a few items in a nearby shop, children (journey types highlighted in the article) wether they be an elderly person or a parent driving for a journey. Just because a destination is relatively near, still does not mean it is safe to walk or practical to get to other than by a car. The article does highlight where public transport is available, people avail of it, and cycling journeys represent a very small amount of journeys (unsurprisingly) given our poor infrastructure and how weather can be. Without proper facilites and cycling infrastructure very few people will take to cycling in this country unless its essential imo. I used to do it for years when I had to, and its miserable in the cold and wet weather and it is as unsafe if not less safe than it was before with lots of reckless inconsiderate drivers (not all, but all it takes is one or a few). Having been knocked off a bicycle once myself by a car & I knew a person killed while cycling to work, I wouldnt try to foist onto people how they should get around. Safer is better, and it is possible to do a small shop and collect a few sprogs at a safe speed out of the weather in small car, not possible to do all that in one go while walking or cycling and not safely.


    The solution isnt to browbeat, guilt or demand people not take their car for any journey of any type until a suitable effective safe alternative or infrastructure is available, as the article highlights people use public transport where it is available. If other options are available, I think people will avail of them where possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,465 ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Another cold and wet weather doom merchant. It is a couple of weeks since the last person said this and not a single day since has it rained during my morning run. It has been pleasant every single day



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,993 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    The reality with roads deaths is that there are a bunch of people on the roads that really shouldn't be.

    I've no problem with speed, speed doesn't kill but recklessness and stupidity absolutely does.

    I live in an estate that acts as a shortcut between around the junction of two main roads. People often drive very fast up the road, (I recorded one on my old phone a few years back and based on timing and know distance, they were doing AT LEAST 80km/h in a housing estate)

    My GF's daughter used to go out in her friends car the odd time. I was once driving behind him (unbeknownst to him) and he drives like an absolute TICK! I told her she should not be in the car, cause its only a matter of time before he causes an accident.

    There's also questionable competence levels in driving too. I looked at this info before and it's very usual (I don't have the exact numbers now). But what I found was that test centres have nearly the exact same 1st time pass and 2nd time pass figures in terms of percentages up and down the country. I think it was 75% first time and 96% second time month on month. I think they're passing people to keep the back log down.

    Three nights ago I was nearly involved in a head on collision, some idiot was trying to overtake an E-bike on approach to a roundabout that I was exiting. I exited the roundabout to be faced with a car travelling on the wrong side of the road at speed coming right at me. I was able to get into the bus stop layby and avoided the collision (just).

    The examples above are the kind of ticks that are on the road. I don't think pen points alone work. In these scenarios if caught by a Garda they should just seize the car and if you want it back its gonna be €1,000 (+ the pen points)



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 54,223 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    I've no problem with speed, speed doesn't kill but recklessness and stupidity absolutely does.

    You've no problem with speed but then relate a tale of someone driving at 80km/h through an estate, as if the stupidity and speed can be separated?

    Speed *does* kill. It can be a primary or secondary factor. People can drive too fast for their ability to safely control a car; but even if speed is not the primary cause it can be the next main factor in whether the collision occurs, and how severe it is. The difference in stopping distance, between 30km/h and 50km/h is approximately double. That means you're much less likely to stop in time in an emergency braking situation, and if you*do* end up in a collision, the damage done will be significantly less.



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