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Irish Chess Championship 2023

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭zeitnot


    Here's sodacat's first Irish championship: https://www.irlchess.com/irlch1985_allfiles/pairings_irlch1985.html.

    Much has changed, but the size and strength of the field seems roughly comparable at a first glance.

    Five players from that event are playing again this year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    Interesting to see that table after all these years, not a single weak player in sight. You will notice that the ratings shown were ICU ratings and not FIDE which tend to be higher. If you compare the ICU ratings of this years Ch with that of 1985 you will see which was the stronger. The Irish Championship used to be a really special tournament before entry restrictions were relaxed to allow just about every Tom Dick and Harry rated over 1800 who knew the en passant rule was allowed to play in it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    Blast form the past - It was nice to see Colm Barry and Dennis Healy in today as spectators. They took a keen interest in all the games.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    Ask Colm to give me a call if you see him there again. Tell him my scrabble is now at a level to give him a run for his money.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Rounds 4 and 5 results have I believe confirmed Kavin Venkatesan's FM title (having missed out by 2 points last month due to a FIDE tweak on his k-factor)


    Maybe no norm chances, but good to see a new title nonetheless



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    He only needed

    We haven't had round 5 yet.

    But otherwise you are right; in fact I think his round 1 win already took Kavin above 2300, and if not, his round 2 win certainly did.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Not quite so clear as that as the Branagan is to be rated too, and he lost about 20 points in that.


    (But yes, correct on rounds 3/4, not 4/5)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Two crucial games coming up in round 6 involving the four players on 4/5: Baburin v O'Connor and O'Donnell v Venkatesan.

    Does anyone know why Shane Melaugh is not paired for round 6? He is on three and a half points out of five but should presumably score nothing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 Shanemelaugh


    I came down with a head cold the night before Round 5 so asked the arbiter if a bye was possible, which he granted. Not quite sure why I would take a 0 point bye I would have just played and taken my chances if a bye was completely impossible, and nothing in the rules for the event prevent the request of a bye apart from I believe the last round.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    I just saw that, disgraceful!

    Started as a very big event though over 200 players, think they all have proper wooden pieces now at the business end of the tournament 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Thanks for explaining and hope you feel better soon, but I am surprised that half-point byes are allowed at all in our national championship.

    They were not permitted in the recent British Championship, for example.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    And have you taken an antigen test? Covid is on the rise again, it says on the news, and I hear there were some cases at the recent British Championships due to one or two players with symptoms infecting opponents.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 Shanemelaugh


    Thanks, yeah I mean most events do allow for one half point bye if necessary apart from the latter rounds.

    I have taken a test and it came up as negative also no temperature over 38 so pretty sure it’s just a common head cold. So will definitely be finishing off the event thankfully.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    As far as I remember they used to be permitted in the first rd or 2, but agree it should not be allowed at all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    Sorry to hear you got a head cold - but in retrospect you would have been better trying to play through it as you were still in contention. It should have been explained to you that half point byes are not given during a championship tournament - it is a FIDE event and half point byes are generally not avaliable. Otherwise, there is a danger that several players would seek strategic byes during a championship. In the Irish championship, a half point can be a very good result - unlike in a five round weekender, where a half point dropped could put you out of contention.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    A few years ago, I also had to take a bye in the Irish championship (also round 6, I think) in order to attend my cousins funeral.

    Post edited by macelligott on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 Shanemelaugh


    I mean I have played in many international 9 round events including the World Open with huge prize funds whereby even 2 half point byes were permitted, I think it’s understandable not to allow byes for maybe the last two rounds maybe 3 rounds for obvious reasons, but at the end of the day it’s an extremely long event and illness + circumstances should be accounted for so it seems harsh to me just to point blank disregard byes in the middle stages of the event, but I do get your points maybe it’s something the ICU can look at for future events also the bye was only given to me because I was ill they do not just get given out lightly so I’m not sure I think it’s fair to allow for a half point bye in the middle stages whereby someone has an illness and it is clear that it is not a tactical bye, as it’s always at the discretion of the arbiter.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 627 ✭✭✭Retd.LoyolaCpt


    This could be codified in the terms and conditions going forward but its not covered as of now; hence, arbiter's call.

    For context, there have been several half point byes granted in rounds 5-8 over the last few years.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    It may be a simple error too. Worth a quick question to the arbiter (who's usually more than reasonable in this regard) rather than a long discussion on the internet I'd have thought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Should be added alright if its not there, I provide an example which is fairly standard practice:


    A player cannot request more than three byes, except for the last two rounds where it is permitted. Byes for a given round cannot requested after the previous round has finished. 

    No half point byes will be awarded.  



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Shane has got his half point which probably makes it easier to do the pairings than if he had been scored zero.

    His reward is Black against Alex Baburin.

    New leader Conor O'Donnell plays Peter Carroll and Jonathan O'Connor plays Jacob Flynn.

    Kavin still has a chance if he can win his last three games. In round 7 he has Black against Cathal Keenan.

    Seamus Duffy and Dermot Nolan seem to have withdrawn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    All sounds a bit dodgy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Appreciate that Shane, but its not a standard practice for open tournaments, in Spain they give zero for a bye, and in a National championship it would be absurd to allow a player not to play and get a half a point, its basically a free rest day



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8 prey20


    IMO this a non-issue, player and arbiter entirely correct

    no advantage to the player, now black v the top seed and loses a white

    another player with 2 byes (½, 0) now on board 1 for Rd7

    there have already been 2 full point byes in the event with more impact on integrity of the scoring



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    you are obviously not a fan of rules

    ridiculous post



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    I recently played in the over 50's british ch but I was dosed up on anti biotics as the glands in my throat swelled up....I withdrew after 5 rounds because of miserable performance (2 draws and 3 losses) and a train skrike that was taking place in round 6....last week my throat infection reappeared and I am now on super strong anti biotics (625mm tablets of co-amoxiclav) ...my throat infection has subsided.

    As an older player now I can pass on my experience. Do not play chess if you are unwell...it will just make you more unwell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭zeitnot


    It would be interesting to have a place were people could comment on games as they're in progress. The chat room doesn't seem to be working on Lichess, and it's pretty dead here. Also, the tipster competition was enjoyable.

    Some dramatic twists and turns on the top two boards. Further down the field, there were some interesting blunders, for example on boards 8 and 12 (where 24. Nd6??? must be simple chess blindness, and there were further twists and turns later). Colm Daly seems to have a lost position, falling into an interesting bind / near-zugzwang.

    I've been struck all through the tournament at the number of games where players play on in positions that would be utterly hopeless against a good 1200 player. Player's prerogative, of course.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    It seems Seamus Duffy has not withdrawn after all but will play Brendan Lyons in round 8 while Muhtarim is not paired.

    A motion for agm to outlaw discretionary byes in national championships seems required. There have just been too many of them this year.

    Seamus has yet to score anything at the board but maybe he can put that right tomorrow by taking on Brendan's suspect Black repertoire.

    Jonathan O'Connor has been having a terrific tournament but can he stop Conor taking the title tomorrow with a round to spare?


    There have certainly been some very strange games on the lower boards in several rounds. Apart from board 13 (not 12) where White won quickly after blundering a piece with 24 Nd6 (why didn't Black stop the nonsense with 28...Nb6 and 29...Nd5 ?), there was board 15 in round 6 yesterday. Maybe somebody who was there can explain?

    On Lichess, 53 cQ=Q was suddenly changed to c8=R and the underpromotion made the win uncertain instead of immediately resignable.

    A few moves later the game suddenly ended 1-0 after a Black move. Presumably this was on time? My guess about the underpromotion is that White put an upturned rook on c8 and the arbiter intervened? If so, you would think that any player experienced enough to be in the national championship should know you cannot do upturned rooks any more and that if necessary you can pause the clock to get a real queen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 627 ✭✭✭Retd.LoyolaCpt


    Your guess is right on the latter: upturned rook.

    Muhtarim and Dermot have withdrawn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭zeitnot


    You're right, board 13, not 12.

    I saw the changed promotion in Fox - D. Nolan at the time. I thought it was a simple live boards error, but your theory on upturned rook is very plausible. I think White is winning in the final position (even with rook), though.

    As I say, I was following this game live--it seemed the most interesting of the round--and was expecting Anthony to play the straightforward 53. Qd3+, winning without any need to calculate anything. Promoting to a queen requires calculating what happens with various checks.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    You are right that Anthony should have played 53 Qd3+, the only forced winning move according to Stockfish! I was still trying to work out what should happen when he pushed the c-pawn instead.

    White has to see that after 53...Qxd3 54 Bxd3+ Kh5 55 Ba6 f2 he must play 56 Kg2 and then although Black can pick up the c-pawn by 56...f1Q+ 57 Bxf1 Rc8 the a- and b-pawns supported by the B will win.

    The funny thing is that promoting to a R actually helped White to win, because if it had been a queen on c8 Black would surely have taken it (55 c8Q/R) f2+ 56 Kh2 Rxc8 and after 57 Qxc8 Qe5+ the engine says Black draws.

    Whereas after the R was placed on c8 Black was tempted not to take it, made the inferior move ...Rf3 and lost.

    One of chess's little ironies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    I’m not playing today. Sore throat and headache- I hope not Covid 🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    Jonathan O'Connor had a once in a lifetime chance to win the Irish Championship today yet he agreed a daw AS WHITE after 19 moves🐤🐔 I just don't get it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Rare technical ending 2NvP in Flynn-Baburin.

    I won't say what the tablebase evaluation is.

    Alex must mate or force his opponent to move his h-pawn by move 109 at latest.

    If the pawn advances a new 50-move count begins.

    As of 8.40pm, at move 72, they only have a few minutes each plus increments to play it but they could be at this for an hour or more...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 71 ✭✭Eugene Donohoe


    Fantastic to watch. Great play by Alex and great Sportsmanship by Jacob to allow the final knight move mate.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    Excellent technique by Alex Baburin today in the Triotsky position. Especially given the time shortage and crucial tournament situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Last round top pairings: Baburin v Collins; O'Donnell v Crowley; Venkatesan v O'Connor.

    Yes, that ending was fascinating to watch. At the start, the tablebase shows, Jacob could have postponed giving up the N for the h5-pawn but it's understandable he wanted to start the count. Objectively 60 Ke4 was best but Kg4 only cost 4 moves (losing in 77 whereas only 50 allowed).

    White's first big mistake was 79 Kc2?? which loses in 39 compared with 79 Kb2 (loses in 67), Ka4 (61) or even Ka3 (59).

    In these kind of endings it's easy for either side to "waste" a move or two, or sometimes even five, by humanly-imperceptible inaccuracies without changing the expected result but occasionally there is a big moment when the precise move is required.

    After Alex found 79...Kc4! (others would have let the opponent off) White couldn't really afford any more slips.

    81 Kc2? cost 5 more moves, though with perfect defence thereafter it is still theoretically possible to reach the safety of move 110.

    Finally 88 Ka2?? lost in 13 theoretically and Alex played the final phase more or less perfectly. With 88 Kc1! the tablebase shows a thin line of perfect play that would save White under the 50-move rule.


    Well done Alex but I do feel rather sorry for Conor who is now slightly behind on tiebreaks.

    At least Conor will be fresher tomorrow and arguably has the weaker last round opponent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭zeitnot


    @RooksPawn Why do you say Conor is behind on tie-breaks? He is not behind on any relevant tie-break (see flyer).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    will it be the dreaded play off/lottery?

    I have been saying this is a disaster waiting to happen for years



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭zeitnot


    Whatever Chess-Results says is inapplicable. The tie-break rules are specified in the Irish championship terms and conditions document, and stated on the flyer. They’re part of the general championship conditions approved at the 2018 AGM.

    (Does Chess-Results even have a way of saying “see terms & conditions”?)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭zeitnot


    It could well be a playoff, most naturally if both leaders win. Other playoffs are possible if neither wins and the board 3 game has a decisive result.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Chess-results does not have a mind of its own. It applies the tiebreaks specified by the Chief Arbiter when he sets up the program in the Swiss Manager pairing system, the outputs from which are uploaded to chess-results.com.

    So it could happen that the initial set-up was done incorrectly but I cannot say whether that is the case here.

    There was a case earlier this year in the English Championship Seniors 50+ where the tiebreak specified by the arbiter did not match what had been announced on the tournament website; under one system Hebden would have won and under the other Arkell would have won.

    They agreed to share the title.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭zeitnot


    I remember the English Senior Championship mess. But in that case, if I recall correctly, the documentation from the organizers themselves provided the two different methods.

    In any case, this specific point has already cropped up several times in Irish chess. For example, for the Irish championship 2015, Chess-Results showed Philip Short winning on tie-break (https://chess-results.com/tnr179720.aspx?lan=1&art=4) but nevertheless the ICU followed its own methods. Similarly in 2017, multiple tie-breaks are shown on Chess-Results (report only goes to round 8), and Philip Short would have won on the third tie-break.

    Going back further, to 1982, the method announced by the controller (and used to award the trophy) didn't match what was shown by the flyer. After an objection, the ICU (in December 1982) awarded the title to the winner as specified by the method on the flyer.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Really extraordinary stuff in the final round


    Babs held to a draw by Adam Collins - left the door open for Conor, Jonathan and Kavin


    Jonathan was +5 against Kavin but I think played too conservatively; ended up still two pawns up but with no other advantage (so +2, if that) - and then on move 40 left his flag fall. He probably would have ground out a win which would have earned him joint first, though there was a ways to go. But that's a horrible way to lose


    Then Conor made a bollox of things v James Crowley - who had arrived 53 minutes late and was close to defaulting Conor the title. At one stage James had mate in ten but missed the line. Still had a big edge - piece and pawn up - but was struggling to find progress with Conor's rook and queen threatening annoying checks. Then James allowed a three-fold repetition, which Conor played but didn't claim!


    A draw for Conor would have given him joint first too - so both Jonathan and Conor have thrown away joint first on a basic technicality. That'll haunt them...


    Meanwhile it looks like Alex v Kavin for a playoff for the title (and an Olympiad spot next year)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    when is the play off?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,273 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Ah I will miss it :) good luck, maybe a Benildus winner :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭zeitnot


    "A draw for Conor would have given him joint first too ..."

    He would have won the title without any playoff if he had drawn.

    Missing the repetition rubs salt in the wound, but most people watching missed it (and were only alerted to it when the engine evaluation dropped to 0.0). Several people still couldn't see it after it was pointed out to them.

    The game itself was strange. He really wasn't himself at all today.



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