Irish Chess Championship 2023

Retd.LoyolaCpt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120977753#Comment_120977753

You act like this is a money making exercise which I or the ICU earn any money from.. the event annually costs (or loses, whichever vernacular you prefer) between 3 and 7 grand - while I have never taken a payment for it. This is probably one of the few years that the blitz made some modest money - and gernally in those instance the prize fund is raised. Maybe not you, but many people like that particular event. But in future, I'll let the organiser know to aim to maximise the ICU losses and minimize the number of events to make you happy if you want.

"As for the player who didn't start until round 3, if you cannot be there for round 1, don't enter." - of course, lets encourage people not to enter. Why didn't I think of that?!

If you're done making petty remarks - maybe you could actually try to give reasons that your motions are needed. Your comments and motions often sound overly-reactionary and overly-officious in my opinion. I don't see much need for change (corrected sentence)- other than a new volunteer to organise, more volunteers to assist the chief arbiter and clarity on half-point byes; I've already offered my motion on the latter.

RooksPawn

Typical arrogant Gonzaga reaction to any attempt to criticise your way of doing things!

cdeb

Mod note - would you relax Rookspawn

Hereforthechess

My few random thoughts on the festival

This year I played several events and had an enjoyable time. I think they were well run for the most part - if slightly delayed in starting - this always seems to be the case with the blitz - which is frustrating - if you try want to get back into the city for a few pints.

I would be in favor of the blitz actually starting at 630pm.

It was great to be on hand on the Sunday to see most of the drama of the final round unfold and also, to catch bits of the play-off games between the blitz rounds (probably accounts for my relatively modest/abject (delete where appropriate) performance!)

 

For anyone who is thinking of playing / staying in the venue for any future events:

PROS: the playing venue is decent I think - I never feel overly cramped despite the 100+ participants.

the hotel is on the 145-bus route from Heuston so it’s easy to get to,  35-50 min depending on traffic

I found most of the staff pleasant to deal with on the several occasions I’ve stayed

price-wise not too bad given it is Dublin - have had a room from 110 to 150 per night depending on the season - so 55-75 per person.

 

CONS: I’ve never felt good after eating here - it could be there's something I’m allergic to but people I’ve been with also think its below par

The arbitrary 11pm bar close on a Sunday is shocking - no resident bar either or even the option to drink in the lobby for an hour or two - it feels like they want you in bed by midnight. It’s just too far out of town that it’s not worth the effort to go into Dublin especially when the blitz ran over by 45 min.

Mind you the above point isn’t too much of a drawback given that the Guinness is rank even by hotel bar standards - but I would have thought it would be nigh on impossible to get a real bad pint of it in Dublin. Shows what I know.

 

Personally, I think in future I would just stay in the city if I was only playing the blitz.

For a weekender - I would stay in the hotel just for the convenience of not trekking out to it each morning.

 

As to the events themselves: I think it’s fair to acknowledge the level of organization that goes into running it - a big thanks to all involved.

It’s great to be able to play the three different time controls on a fairly regular basis now OTB in Ireland.

 I still think nothing beats the 90+30 but the blitz and rapids are fun way to chill out and have a bit of craic - mind you the London always crops up!

 

As to the motions being mentioned in the previous posts ;  I’m unlikely to ever reach the exalted 1900 level but my opinions are as follows:

If all the players are OK with the option of byes in the early rounds that seems fine to me.

60 min default seems pretty standard around the country in my experience – and given the traffic in Dublin I’d leave that as is.

The early start for the last round is totally understandable given  people have work on the Monday, the time to back to town for the last train/bus, it cuts out the expense of an extra night in the hotel, leaves time for a play-off, the venue needs to be cleared, etc…. and we might get an early blitz kick off to boot!

Thanks again to everyone involved in running the festival.

macelligott

In R4 of the Open Weekender, four players on 3/3 played opponents on 1/3

In R3 EIGHT players on 2/2 played opponents on 0/2

That is not a Swiss pairing where players play those in their score group where possible.

Such pairings increase the number of players on full points.

Acceleration is meant to reduce the number on full points.

I think Pete Morriss has some understanding on how this could happen - he knows more about computer pairing programs than I do.

However, I did Swiss pairings by hand before computers. And such pairings would never be allowed.

Accelerated pairings are Q1 v Q2 and Q3 v Q4

But players are still paired within their own score group. A player might need to be floated up or down a half point. But not four players floated down two points. I really can't understand it :-(

Pete Morriss

But accelerated pairing is a variant system of pairing: normal Swiss rules are not supposed to apply! Accelerated pairing does indeed usually pair Q1 v Q2 and Q3 v Q4 in round 1, which pairs players with the same number of points: but what else could it do in round 1, as all players have zero points? But the aim is that in round 2 (or round 3 in this recent tournament) losers in the top half play winners in the bottom half. That of course breaks the standard Swiss rules (or Dutch Swiss, as it is confusingly called) but that is done deliberately with the aim of reducing the number of players on 100% quicker than the standard Swiss pairings would do. That does happen when ratings are fairly reliable, as losers in the top half should still be on average quite a lot stronger than winners in the bottom half: if all games went with rating, then after two rounds of accelerated pairing only the top half of Q1 would be on 2/2, whilst with standard pairing all of them would be.

Incidentally, this has nothing to do with computers: one can do accelerated pairing by hand just as easily as doing standard Swiss pairing, and many organizers did. Players in the top half would get a "pairing bonus" - in this case it was 2 points, but 1 point would have been better. You then pair people in the usual way based on them having the "notional points" of their actual points plus their pairing bonus. Of course the pairing bonus should only be awarded in the first few rounds, and should disappear well before the final round, when standard Swiss rules would apply.

Pete Morriss

Another way of thinking about this is that in a large Open such as this, with large rating disparities, round 1 under standard pairings is usually a formality: the players in Q1 beat the players in Q3, and the players in Q2 beat those in Q4. Then in round 2 we get Q1 v Q2 and Q3 v Q4, which is the same as the round 1 pairings under accelerated pairing. So accelerated pairing in effect removes the largely redundant round 1. When there are very few rounds and a large number of players this is desirable.

So when done properly accelerated pairing is usually useful. The trouble is that in this tournament it was done very badly.

sodacat11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120976904#Comment_120976904

I've no problem with the early last round start. I prefer 30 minutes default time. Byes don't bother me. I agree with motion 4.

😕I must be mellowing in my old age.

sodacat11

As always I think that the Irish Championship should be strictly for players rated above 1900 (ICU or FIDE) NO EXCEPTIONS.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979741#Comment_120979741

Wait, what?! :)

Retd.LoyolaCpt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979723#Comment_120979723

Again, motion 4 is already in the rules after last year as I pointed out earlier and would have been policed had it arisen this year.

I'm not strong on point 2 - but I just don't see it as necessary; what's it curing? It would have caused one important default this year. 1 hour allowed the arbiter to call the player and get them there on time - pretty sure this thread would be on fire if it had been a straight 1-0.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120978619#Comment_120978619

I prefer my arrogance to come from the more balanced Trinity wing. pity we haven't heard from that voice since.. *checks notes*

corkcitychess

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979815#Comment_120979815

😉😀

corkcitychess

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120979741#Comment_120979741

wait, what?

exactly retd....

because an 1894 rated player turned out to be a king maker in round 9!

Joedryan

It seems like we have various opinions on issues so maybe let the membership decide.

On the last rd I still do feel strongly that the way it impacts on the tournament both in terms of quality of play and players failing to even turn up each year is a more important aspect than those mentioned in its favour.

macelligott

Joe, everyone was well aware of the earlier last round start. The earlier start meant it was less complicated to organise the playoff. A playoff was in the rules, and if there were a 3pm start, there might have been problems getting the playoff finished before we were ejected from the hotel.

sodacat11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120980927#Comment_120980927

Your point has got to be one of the silliest I've ever heard in this blog. You might as well argue that it was right to let a donkey run in the Derby because it got in the way of Aidan O'Brein's horse and influenced the result.

NB Before Corkcity chess or Loyola get on to the RSPCA I'd like to point out that no donkey actually ran in the Derby and O'Brien's horse won.

corkcitychess

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120984927#Comment_120984927

lol @ Soda....

reminds me ....you were talking about golf a few years back and someone asked what was your handicap? my answer seems even more relevant now

answer.... your brain 🤣

Joedryan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120984656#Comment_120984656

All you have put forward there are excuses. If everyone was aware how come everyone didnt turn up?

But thats not even the main reason as a pointed out already.

Retd.LoyolaCpt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120983365#Comment_120983365

Agreed, let’s let members decide. Think we’ve most of the pros and cons detailed already.

corkcitychess

technically this thread is still applicable to the Women's championship....I notice that Diana Mats has a full point lead on 4/4 and looks on course to become the new Irish women's champion and that will be authentic this year as she has now changed her federation to Ireland.

Congrats on both counts!

although I note the participation of 2 non IRL players...presumably the same rules regarding IRL do not apply to the womens ch.

https://chess-results.com/tnr807479.aspx?lan=1

zeitnot

The entry requirements are given in the flyer, available on the event page: two years resident in Ireland to play, IRL registration to win title.

IRL registration has never been required for all players in the Women’s Championship, or any event other than the main Irish championship, as far as I can remember.

RooksPawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004756#Comment_121004756

Have Diana Mats, and the other Ukrainian and the Serb who played in the women's championship actually lived in Ireland for two years?

Last year there were no non-IRL players in the women's championship but Mats played the main championship when UKR.

Mats cannot play in the Olympiad for Ireland until she has lived here for four years, if I read the regulations on the ICU website correctly.

It is rather curious that she played in the recent IM Norm League as a UKR player and that the FIDE rating of the event has not yet been completed. Presumably she had to complete all her games in that tournament before she could transfer?

On the other hand, the runner-up Antonina Gora (originally Polish but transferred to IRL) has certainly been living here for several years. I played her in the Armstrong in 2018 and she wasn't a newcomer then.

sodacat11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120987564#Comment_120987564

The reason everyone didn't turn up is because some people are just plai thick and no matter how many times you tell them that the last round is starting early they just won't get it.

historian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121004298#Comment_121004298

Diana Mats drew in the last round thus winning the tournament. As yet the ICU website has not updated to show who is the 2023 Women's Champion but the ICU Facebook page has a post stating:

"Podium finishers: 1st Diana Mats 4.5/5 (due to residential status missed the title); 2nd Antonina Gora 4/5 (title winner); 3rd Diana Mirza 3.5/5."

The residential requirement only applies to players whose FIDE Federation is not Ireland. So after her federation change, surely Mats is entitled to be awarded the title?

RooksPawn

Interesting question. Initially I also assumed that Mats was the champion but then I wondered if it should be Gora.

Where are the regulations about title eligibility to be found on the Irish Chess Union website?

historian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121014429#Comment_121014429

I couldn't find a set of regulations, if indeed they exist. However the flyers for the Irish Women's Championships going back some time are on the ICU website [see the Calendar Section].

For the 2015 (held early 2016) and 2016 Women’s Championship the ICU flyers explanation on eligibility and participation was: “Irish Women’s Championship is only open to female players registered with FIDE as IRL.” 

However, for the 2017 event the wording changed to “The Irish Women’s Championship is open to female players resident in Ireland for 2+ years while only players registered as IRL may claim the Irish Women’s Champion title” and this has remained the wording in the flyers up to and including 2023. 

Presumably somewhere the ICU will have a record of why this change was made and hopefully a fuller explanation. Maybe there's a item on the ICU website but I haven't found anything yet.

My interpretation of this 2017-2023 wording is that non-IRL players were now being allowed to participate, but only if they had 2+ years residence, but still keeping the title eligibility to players registered with FIDE as IRL – with this eligibility not requiring any residential qualification. If this interpretation is correct, Diana Mats, having become registered with FIDE as IRL before the Championship started, would have been be eligible for the 2023 title.

corkcitychess

a non IRL player can never ever be Irish champion

even in 2017 when I won the intermediate jointly with 3 others , there were 2 non Irish but it was only John McMorrow and myself that were in consideration for the title and John won on tie break.

All Irish championships from the senior down to the junior and all age categories , the Title can only go to an IRL player.

If Diana Mats was IRL registered when she entered the tournament I also think she should be champion, however if she only became IRL registered after the date of her entry then Gora should get the title

looking forward to the ICU explanation

historian

Interesting point about whether date of entry is relevant, though I'm not inclined to agree. However, in the run-up to the Championship it looked at one point that there might be very few playing and I was checking entries on the ICU website occasionally; I think Diana Mats entered late on and it would have been after her change of Federation.

Also looking forward to a full ICU explanation surrounding the eligibility issue.

corkcitychess

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121015289#Comment_121015289

Don't hold your breath, The ICU took a full 6 months to offer an explanation (contrive IMHO lol) for last years fiasco allowing Mats to play in the senior championship as a non IRL player