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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭pcardin


    Defending ruSSians of not protesting because dictatorship, fear, yada yada, as well as defending them at all is frankly quite dumb nowadays. For your memory refreshment - they organized themselves in masses in a very short time to support regime in May. Even in Ireland around 1000 ruSSkies organized for themselves a sh1tshow in May. So, if they wanted to protest, they could, they just dont want.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,216 ✭✭✭pcardin


    Post edited by pcardin on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    Watching a lot more footage from both sides the last few days and while massive losses for Russia and Ukraine I'm convinced Russia is suffering more.

    It's depressing watching changes on a map and how slow Ukraine are at taking territory but it's clear that Russia is throwing bodies at the breakthrough areas to stop it at all costs.

    They keep flooding the frontline trenches with mobilised reserves who get picked off by Ukrainian artillery and drones. They've about 2 more months to hold out so the question is can they keep throwing bodies to plug the holes for that long.

    At the current rate that would be about 30k reserves dead so in reality they probably can. I wonder will Ukraine be happy to just bleed them as much as possible before settling for another winter where they'll inevitably be better equipped come next spring with western fighter jets and Abrams.

    At least during the winter they Will be able to hit more Russian long range target's now that they have long range missile's from France and the UK and hopefully Germany and the US by then.

    Assuming next year from May to October we see the war playing out similar to how it is now just with Ukraine having more of an upper hand including a bigger artillery advantage by then. I'd guess Russia could be looking at losing around 100k men to hold the southern frontline for another year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 275 ✭✭Seanmadradubh


    Or to put it another way, if you act like a dick people won't want anything to do with you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 804 ✭✭✭technocrat


    Another explanation could be the uncomfortable truth for some here that the majority of the public actually support Putin and the war on Ukraine.

    Also the silence from Russian expats living abroad is deafening except for those that’s are openly supporting Russia whether it’s in Germany, Ireland or at the podium of sporting events!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭Become Death


    lol.

    That's certainly a way to put it, but not really representative of my point.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    If Russian state TV and media constantly tells you that Ukraine is a Failed State full of Nazis and Paedophiles, then it's not a huge leap to speculate that there's actually a healthy degree of support for the war. In the absence of a free press, or basic digital connectivity to give you credible dissenting opinions, it's easy enough to cultivate a solid buy-in into the "three day" invasion.

    But then, I'd go further and speculate that the further you get from a military family with sons fighting in Ukraine, the more support rises. Easier to maintain a belief in Russia as some benevolent interventionist entity when you're not burying an empty coffin, or hearing the scuttlebutt from comrades and other doomed boys in the trenches.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 275 ✭✭Seanmadradubh


    "I meant that in every society, people who go against the socially accepted narrative or acceptable opinion are more often than not ostracised and for the want of a better word "cancelled"."

    We're a social species and like all social animals we need rules regarding behaviour to keep our societies together and survive as a species, you should count yourself lucky that you live in a time and place where being "cancelled" is what happens, in days of old you would have found yourself banished from the village or tribe, which was in reality for most, a death sentence.

    The whole "anti-cancell culture" thing is just people wanting to act like dicks without any comeback, and that will never happen, it's too much part of what we are as a social animal, and essential for our very survival.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 223 ✭✭strathspey


    Actually, just like all Germans where collectively vilified after the WW2, also white South Africans during the years of apartheid, I'm very comfortable in castigating all russians for not speaking out, call it guilty by association. russians, no matter where they live, should expect to be despised for at least a generation following on from this war!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,515 ✭✭✭zv2


    It looks like history is starting up again.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭Become Death


    Again, you seem to have picked up on a singular word "cancelled", one which I admitted was not a great word, and run with it and misrepresent what I said.

    There are plenty of reasons to disagree with socially accepted narratives or to question authority other than "wanting to be a dick", but often, if you do, you have people admonishing you, disowning you, discrediting you or your lifes work or insulting you. While these outcomes pale in comparison to what happens in Russia or North Korea etc, it's still indicative of similar tactics being used.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭yagan


    Certainly there'll be far more scrutiny of a post Putin Russia unlike the general optimism that followed the dissolution of the USSR.

    After 9/11 the US got too cosy with Putin, bbq with Bush at Crawford ranch as allies in the war on a noun.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,062 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Unfortunately not always the case. Assad still going, Maduro, Lukashenko, the Burmese Junta, Mugabe was there until his 90's, the Kim dynasty in N Korea has been there for 3 generations. If an authoritarian leader can keep control of most of the military and the security apparatus they can often stay in power indefinitely. There is little or no threat to Putin's leadership in Russia.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭rogber


    The people being ostracized in Russia are the ones standing up to injustice, not defending it. And even in the west, people are sometimes ostracized simply for speaking the truth (women who point out that being female isn't a matter of feeling, but biology). Each case is different, it's far from simplistic "the good guys are popular, the dicks are cancelled"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭rogber


    I've met quite a few Russians abroad who oppose their government. They often volunteer to help Ukrainian refugees or host them. Unfortunately it's the Z idiots who tend to make more noise in public, while the better ones often focus on action.

    Though it's true many seem indifferent and silent and that's hard to excuse



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 275 ✭✭Seanmadradubh


    I just gave the reason for that kind of behaviour. If people never questioned or disagreed our societies would never progress, just count yourself lucky you don't live in a time where you could have been burned at the stake for saying the wrong thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,062 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Not making much sense here I'm afraid. I don't see our government having many similarities to Putin's regime.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    And again you seem to be trying to draw equivalence, or a sense of moral absolutism that because some in Western society are socially admonished or disowned, that there's similarity between that and the actions of state-supported and controlled suppression that scales up to jail-time for critics of the government or "othered" classes of people.

    There's really no comparison here, and TBH maybe your point is better served by giving an example of (say) Irish or UK person(s) who would be a good example of this going on - and why it's similar. Otherwise it strikes as a very abstract, slightly hand-waved attempt to draw parallels.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 275 ✭✭Seanmadradubh


    There seems to be quite a few people around who don't understand just how good we have it here, and how lucky they really are.

    Is it perfect? No. Could it be better? Yes. But at the present time the majority of the people living on this little island of ours are living, peacefull, longer, healthier, and more afluent lives than at any time in the entire history of humanity here.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,041 ✭✭✭jmreire


    And Putin is subservient to the Silovicki, his friends from the FSB / KGB days. But so far he's protected because its in the best interests of the Silovicki that he remain alive. When that changes, he will be "dismissed". So presently his biggest threat is the old man with the scythe.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt



    near Roboytne. As you can see Russia isn't just sitting behind defensive lines waiting for the Ukrainians. They're attacking the Ukrainians hence all this destroyed Russia armour in the open.

    I said it before it's like 2 boxers meeting in the middle of the ring and slogging it out. This is good for Ukraine as Russia will be depleted faster but the downside is it will be very slow progress who have to fight for every inch gained.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭Become Death


    Nope.

    I've explained it to the person who I originally responded to.

    I am not equivocating a comedian being "cancelled" to someone being thrown into a gulag. You would want to be an idiot to think I was.

    I was just saying that using fear, intimidation and coercion to silence dissenters is extremely commonplace in every society. Obviously the severity and outcomes are drastically different in places like Russia and North Korea. I have already said that.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    That's like saying a tap on the shoulder is similar to a punch in the face cos they both involve a hand. Yeah they're broadly similar in terms of vague methodology, but only at a very specific, very abstracted scale - one that doesn't really track in any real terms by way of comparing social admonishment and institutionalised coercion. You say they're similar, I don't think they're remotely similar and trivialises the latter while overstating the former.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭Become Death


    If that is what you have taken from what I have said, then I can't, and have no desire, to convince you otherwise.

    I'm confident that it was clear to most what I was saying and I stand by my (admittedly) throw away comment and am happy to leave it there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,583 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    For those arguing that it's on the Russian population to stop the war through protests or a general uprising, about 6 months I shared your opinion and posted as much in this very thread. Like yourselves, I had grossly underestimated just how beaten down the average Russian is.

    One of the things that changed my view was this documentary series:

    Russia 1985–1999: TraumaZone: What It Felt Like to Live Through The Collapse of Communism and Democracy

    It's a seven part BBC documentary by Adam Curtis made up of unused archive footage that the BBC's Moscow bureau shot for the BBC News desk at the time. It's utterly stunning film-making IMO and a real insight into what's lived history for most Russians over the age of 30.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSjQL8MYniTTLA3wnZ25U-s6RgR4uJNvL



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,283 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    This is an utterly false comparison.

    A comedian being cancelled is not coercion. You continue to double down with false analogies.

    It's not just the severity of the outcomes, it is the actual tactics. You don't seem to understand the words you are using like coercion, tactics or are engaging deliberately in double speak.

    You are drawing a false both sides equivalence that is entirely without merit or foundation, that is entirely false on multiple levels to what goes on in Russia or North Korea.

    You have had multiple attempts to 'convince' people what you were trying to say, and all you are doing is convincing people your claims are false.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭Become Death


    Sigh.

    I said I am NOT comparing a comedian being cancelled...

    By severity I also meant the methods used, I thought that was obvious.

    I was simply saying that coercion, fear and intimidation are used by practically every government/society to keep people in line.

    I was not saying that all are equal in their methods, outcomes or tactics.

    I understand the words I used and no, I am not engaging in "double speak". I was responding to a poster in a throwaway manner who I have already clarified my position with.

    Lets leave it there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,062 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    I was simply saying that coercion, fear and intimidation are used by practically every government/society to keep people in line.

    Okay, I don't see any evidence of the Irish government systematically doing this to "keep people" in line, certainly not in the way you are suggesting. So it sounds like a baseless personal opinion.

    The Russian regime is very different, and does use these tactics on a systematic basis to silence opposition, the press, to curb freedoms and so on.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    But this is the bit that I'm confused by:

    I was simply saying that coercion, fear and intimidation are used by practically every government/society to keep people in line.

    Well you also spoke of "...people admonishing you, disowning you, discrediting you or your lifes work or insulting you" - so which is it? TBH you can at least appreciate why your position is a big hard to grasp cos it basically encompasses everything while being a very broad comment. Are you talking about governments coercing citizens, or the social consensus?

    You say it's a throwaway comment, that's fine, but it has been unclear what angle you're coming from in terms of a non-Russian perspective.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,283 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    You actually specifically said:

    "While these outcomes pale in comparison to what happens in Russia or North Korea etc, it's still indicative of similar tactics being used."

    Now you contradict yourself by saying : 

    "I was not saying that all are equal in their methods, outcomes or tactics."

    But you did say it.

    Your words could be interpreted as attempting to draw a false moral and political equivalence between what is happening in Russia and what happens in democratic countries with constitutional liberties. Multiple posters picked up on that.

    So if you do understand the words, maybe reflect on that before drawing such equivalences. There are often posts on this thread pushing Russian propaganda, some of it very obvious, some of it insidious. 

    Earlier you said "You would want to be an idiot to think I was."

    Well, you should have seen some of the earlier propaganda being peddled on this thread to realise why on this thread that doesn't carry as much weight as you might think.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



This discussion has been closed.
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