Limerick Northern Distributor Road

marno21 · 26-04-2022 10:37pm

I have a feeling the Green Party TD in Limerick will get an absolute pasting in the next election and it's nothing less than he deserves.

Taking this out and putting in a fantasy rail network that will never be built, and if it were built would be completely impractical for most people in the city is absolute lunacy. Really is stunting the city's development and it's a shame because it's a great city with so much potential for its size.

Cookiemunster · 26-04-2022 11:06pm

The new LSMATS plan actually only has new stations on the Ennis line at Moyross and Ballysimon. It says that anything else (ie the Greens whole local rail plan) is impractible and could be looked at again sometime after 2040 if more people live along the old lines by then.

There's not a hope that Leddin keeps his seat.

FreedomOfSpeechAndChoice · 27-04-2022 6:27am

None of them Greens live in the real world.

They're holding the rest of us to ransom with their upper middle class fantasy ideas that only they could afford.

I agree with Marno; sooner they're out, the better.

hans aus dtschl · 27-04-2022 12:56pm

Is there anything to this, other than the fact that Green lizard people have an agenda to stop anything from being good again? Was a specific decision made by someone?

I didn't realise that Eamon Ryan had so much absolute power. I had innocently thought that the NTA would have had some input to LSMATS too.

The article linked reads like something I'd often read on cycle advocacy media: a "vested interest group" media report. What's the actual news about the Limerick Northern Distributor Road? And what's the news about LSMATS? The last I heard the whole thing went into the bin after the first review, essentially because it followed CMATS down the "we need moar carz" path.

Cookiemunster · 27-04-2022 1:27pm

The revised LSMATS plan was released yesterday.

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/additional-rail-proposals-in-revised-limerick-shannon-transport-strategy/

hans aus dtschl · 27-04-2022 1:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118983548#Comment_118983548

Thanks!

I wonder whether there will be another draft LSMATS, after this one!

From what I've recently read of CMATS, they've now committed to making it a "living document" which is updated regularly and used as a reference point. I think that might be a better approach than lots of fighting over the first formal issue, and hoping it will be perfect. Time changes everything.

Widescreen · 27-04-2022 1:57pm

Greens have to go, the only "solution" they have is Carbon tax. I think the world has got the message now on Climate change and we all realise what needs to be done. It doesn't need a Green Party per say anymore. It just means a calm, clear government policy which encourages us and makes it possible for people to change to electric cars and get their houses properly insulated / retrofitted without massive expense and complication which seems to be the case now. They cannot expect everyone in Ireland to have any electric car, a heat pump system and retrofit done by 2030!

Do things like, make Gas Oil boilers illegal by end of a given year say, 2024 and encourage people to change to a Condenser boiler if they can't go down the Heat pump retrofit road.

Make smokey coal properly illegal and police it.

Give significant scrappage on cars over 8 years old to encourage purchase of an electric, hybrid or plug in hybrid car. All three of those help the environment.

As for these train services, that has to be a non runner. We are not moving away from cars, we are just moving to a different type of car! Therefore we need proper roads of which the Distributor road is one and is badly needed! I was disappointed to see the road to Cork made a N road instead of a motorway, crazy in this day and age.

hans aus dtschl · 27-04-2022 2:08pm

Different thread.

On the Cork road, ignore the "N". It's a motorway in all but name. They can quietly change the sign colours in a few years when the construction is complete.

hans aus dtschl · 27-04-2022 2:16pm

Finally got to the relevant section of LSMATS:

14.4.2 Limerick Northern Distributor Road

Funding provision for the development of the Limerick Northern Distributor Road (LNDR) has not been included in the Government’s National Development Plan 2021-2030. In addition, the Minister for Transport has requested the NTA not to include the LNDR in LSMATS on the basis that proceeding with the LNDR would be contrary to the NPF’s objective of compact growth, would undermine the investment planned in active travel/public transport and would accentuate and continue a dispersed, unsustainable development model in the region. Additionally, the Minster has requested that the focus of transport investment for Limerick in the coming years should be on improving active travel infrastructure, delivering BusConnects and adopting a more transport-orientated development approach through the expansion of the rail network to provide a commuter rail system that serves existing and future development.

Revised rail proposals envisioning a comprehensive commuter rail network for Limerick City and adjoining locations has been included in Chapter 11 of this strategy.

Well. That just makes a mockery of the whole LSMATS process IMO. Either rely on the NTA expertise, and the background data/documentation, or scrap the whole thing. Again IMO. This really looks like the NTA and minister are at odds. That makes no sense to me.

I happen to agree with investing in sustainable transport BEFORE building more city roads, but where's the background data justifying this?

KrisW1001 · 27-04-2022 4:11pm

Sounds like the objectives changed in mid-plan. From its route, you can see that LNDR was clearly intended to open lands to the North of Limerick up for development. That's great if your objective is only “economic growth”, but it’s pretty lousy if your objective is “compact growth”, as it will create urban sprawl that will be very, very difficult to serve with any form of mass trasportation.

Solving our housing problems in this country is intertwined with weaning ourselves off development that promotes private-car commuting (note, I said ”private-car commuting” there, not just “private car”; private cars are fine in themselves - it’s the idea of everyone using a private car for taking the same trip at the same time every morning and evening that’s stupid). Higher densities are a part of that, and this plan won’t promote higher densities.

Note that everything I just said applies only to the un-built northern section of LNDR. The south-western section from Coonagh to Knockalisheen that is under construction right now (well, was until Roadbridge went bust, but will be restarted) is a much better idea: it provides an arterial route between a neglected, high-density part of the city and the city centre, complete with cycleways and the possibility of adding segregated bus-lanes or even light-rail provision in future.

Pete_Cavan · 27-04-2022 4:12pm

Including the LNDR in LSMATS achieves nothing, the project is way down the list for funding so wasn't going to happen his decade anyway. Better to focus on things which are actually achievable.

I don't think what has been suggested would really be a distributor road anyway, it would likely operate as another bypass (i.e. a large proportion of journeys would meet the R445 on both sides of the city). The western side will be largely completed relatively soon (depending how things go with Roadbridge), the objective now should be an extension from the Plassey Road RAB going north-west. That would actually help distribute traffic in the area, rather than attracting large volumes of traffic which doesn't need to be there at all.

27-04-2022 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984530#Comment_118984530

The problem with including it, however, is you end up with "we're only doing X because Y & Z demand are taken care of by the LNDR", whereas if you exclude the LNDR you have to address the Y & Z demands using more sustainable options.

Simply put, a "transport strategy" that involves building more roads is a failed strategy. Never, in the history of anywhere, has building more roads fixed problems with traffic in the long term due to induced demand.

Sure go ahead and build the thing, but don't use the building of it as a justification for not doing other things just because you are building it.

In addition, by removing it from the strategy, you reduce the actual need for it as the demand needs are met using alternatives. If its truly needed, the figures will stand on their own. Its important to note, the road has not been cancelled here, its simply been removed from a strategy document

Lastly, by removing it from the strategy, funding decisions on items in the strategy are no longer constrained by the amount being taken up by the behemoth of a road, which allows for greater scope in expanding funding cases and provision of services. For example, you could go the whole hog and end up with a list of actions that could look something like this

Bike share stations spread all across the city & suburbs, one every 200-300 meters
Sub 10 min frequency on all bus routes from 6am to midnight
Large expansion of bus routes on offer
As mentioned rail expansion
Park & Strides on all major routes
Protected bike lanes throughout the city on all routes
Increased permeability and priority for pedestrians
etc etc etc

Little if any of the above would be likely to happen if you say "this is the pot of money, 80% of which is going to the LNDR".

cantalach · 28-04-2022 2:02am

The walk, cycle, and bus aspects of this are logically sound and technically doable (though the spectacular failure to build a bus lane along the Ennis Road 10 years ago doesn’t fill me with confidence about ability to deliver!). A green route all along the north levee of the river to Bunratty and Shannon would be amazing. “All my changes were there,” as Mr Young puts it.

But parts of the rail plan make no sense to me. Consider the proposed Moyross Station. Being on a line that will remain single-tracked, services will presumably be relatively infrequent. And they will deposit commuters at Colbert Station which the report admits is 15 minutes from the city centre. But Moyross will also be on the D bus corridor which the report says will have services every 15 mins, and which will serve the city centre. Why on Earth would anyone get the train from Moyross?! The proposed Corbally Station makes even less sense given that it is on the C bus corridor with services every 15 mins going straight into town. In fact, depending on where exactly you were going in the city centre, it could be quicker to just walk than to get the train from Corbally. The mere presence of a rail line doesn’t necessarily mean that it makes sense.

hans aus dtschl · 28-04-2022 9:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118984612#Comment_118984612

That's all fine, and I even agree with the approach. But they haven't written that, they've effectively written "the minister made a demand and we're just doing what we were told".

The way they have written it can only be for the purpose of undermining the decision. I'd expect a new revision of LSMATS with the Northern Distributor included as a result of the way it's written!

hans aus dtschl · 28-04-2022 9:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118986605#Comment_118986605

The only thing I can think of around those stations is to allow people to more easily travel further out of Limerick from Corbally or Moyross via Colbert. Again though as you say, bus might be more viable.

Pete_Cavan · 28-04-2022 9:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118986982#Comment_118986982

What was written is that LNDR is not funded under the NDP and would be contrary to the NPF, these were not decisions made by the MfT (even if he is likely in agreement). Neither of the aforementioned documents will be changing soon so it is unlikely any revised version of LSMATS will be significantly different in relation to the LNDR. The NTA is me up of civil servans who tare well aware of the wider context and relevant government policies, the aren't using official plans to make some petty point to a Minister they know will be gone in a couple of years.

At the end of the day, LSMATS can say what it likes about LNDR but that won't change the fact that the project is well down the government’s priorities list. Even if government policy changed tomorrow and LNDR was priority number 1, there are many years of design, procurement and construction before it can open so other things have to be done in the meantime.

hans aus dtschl · 28-04-2022 10:52am

I can't imagine it being a high priority project either. Like the Galway Ring Road, as far as I'm concerned: the wrong tool to fix an existing problem.

geotrig · 28-04-2022 11:04am

my problem still sits with the finishing of this road at Knockalisheen and not past Parteen , I think Parteen needed to be bypassed here and would have been a great relief to the Corbally and Parteen area's that is needed, the stations while all sounding great seem a bit stupid overall and pointless .I'd also question colbert station as being "15mins " from the centre ? it about 2 mins from the centre really ?

mart 23 · 25-07-2022 7:45pm

Has a contractor been appointed yet to complete the Coonagh Knocklisheen road .

Limerick74 · 25-10-2022 6:03pm

@DanielButlerFG: The NTA have finalised the LSMATS and the Northern Distributor Road is not in it.

Significant blow to #Limerick and the region. https://twitter.com/DanielButlerFG/status/1584941386037858306/photo/1

Pete_Cavan · 25-10-2022 6:55pm

Makes no difference, it's a massive project to facilitate very little. It wasn't going to be funded by the government, not even a N road.

A link between J28 and Plassey Park Road roundabout, then a link from there north across the river would be more realistic.

marno21 · 31-10-2022 2:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119792665#Comment_119792665

Is this the roundabout at the eastern end of the National Technology Park? The one with the exit to the NE that goes nowhere.

Cookiemunster · 22-12-2022 2:05pm

I hadn't realised that a contractor had been appointed to finish Coonagh to Knockalisheen, never mind that they were already on site and working.

https://twitter.com/LimerickCouncil/status/1605909670136365061

SeanW · 22-12-2022 7:50pm

Never, in the history of anywhere, has building more roads fixed problems with traffic in the long term due to induced demand.

@[Deleted User] I think the people of Moate or Loughrea might disagree with you there ...

22-12-2022 8:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120026494#Comment_120026494

Show me the data, pre and post, for traffic in both locations, including the figures for the new roads and you'll see a pretty clear picture of induced demand.

I know both locations well, and both locations are still absolute fusterclucks with cars everywhere, Loughrea especially is a disaster. It got a motorway and a bypass and its truly a dismal mess.

In both instances literally nothing was done to improve the situation following the bypassing of those towns so they are as shite now as they were before.

However things are changing for the better with proposals being mooted now that designs and planning applications for bypasses (Loughrea) will be required to show how the public realm will be transformed as a result of building such bypasses so reallocation of road space and reprioritization away from cars will be required to get bypasses approved and funding will apply to everything getting built. Soon it won't be enough to simply redirect the traffic on to a new road, where you are redirecting it from must be transformed into a better place to live and work which will discourage access by car.

SeanW · 22-12-2022 8:23pm

I remember having to spend 1-2 hours trying to get through Loughrea back in the day, and highly doubt that it is anywhere near as bad now.

veryangryman · 22-12-2022 10:30pm

Indeed moate and loughrea are better for it. Better in that those who want to go somewhere decent can get there without having to look at them. Honestly you can't put lipstick on a pig but if you can avoid said pig on the way to better things it's a good thing.

I'm all for this road. Progress in a time of dithering. Good to see

Paddico · 01-08-2023 2:44pm

Not much mentioned on this in a while.

Any construction going on or any future plans been implemented?

Cookiemunster · 01-08-2023 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120926029#Comment_120926029

The Coonagh to Knockalisheen section is under construction again after a new contractor was found to replace Roadbridge. The rest of it was canned by Eamonn Ryan.

marno21 · 01-08-2023 3:06pm

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2023-05-04a.53

Discussed in the Dail recently. I was taken aback at the arrogance of Deputy Leddin interrupting to tell a Sinn Fein TD what Sinn Fein could and couldn't do in Government.

Limerick Northern Distributor Road

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