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General Irish politics discussion thread

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    #1562
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713258#Comment_120713258

    How do TD's for a party (not independents) get to stand in front of the electorate?



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    #1563
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713414#Comment_120713414

    Last word on this.

    Like I believe the people are sovereign in a republic, I believe the membership of any party/organisation to be the same.

    Any system that includes a mechanism that allows the vote of the membership to be over-ruled is not a democratic one in the true sense.

    Cancel the use of ‘backroom’ if it annoys you. Point still stands and FG are paying a price for it if polling, almost all the way, through Varadkar’s tenure is to be believed.



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    #1564
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,196 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713407#Comment_120713407

    It can't be proven either way but I've heard it claimed that lots of Tory supporters joined Labour for a fiver just so they could elect Corbyn as leader 🤣

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1565
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713430#Comment_120713430

    The point is that they do stand in front of the electorate, which can elect or reject them. And it's those who are elected that get to be TDs. It's their election by the people, not their nomination by the party, that gives them a legitimate democratic mandate.



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    #1566
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713600#Comment_120713600

    The mandate the electorate give is to 'govern'.

    The 'people' in the context of choosing the leader, are the 'members' imo. The electorate don't get a say in that.



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    #1567
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713600#Comment_120713600

    But of course, we must remember that TDs are elected by their constituents, but Senators are elected by a very diminished electorate, and some (11) are appointed. So Parliamentary Parties consist of members of very different mandates. The general rank and file members of the party have no mandate beyond their subscriptions.

    What happens in a small party with very few TDs and no Senators?



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    #1568
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713630#Comment_120713630

    Huh? The Taoiseach is chosen by Dáil Éireann; it says so right there in Bunreacht. They literally vote on who should be Taoiseach. Deciding who will be Taoiseach is definitely part of the mandate of a TD. Voting on that exact question is pretty much the first thing they do after being elected.

    You could possibly defend party members choosing a leader when the party is in opposition. it's not particularly democratic, but it's not particularly undemocratic, since the person chosen doesn't thereby acquire any public power, function or authority.

    But elementary principles of democracy tell you that the leader of a party in government, who will become Taoiseach, should be chosen by the elected representatives. They have a mandate that the party members are completely lacking.



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    #1569
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,708 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713865#Comment_120713865

    Alternatively, you could (messily) separate the leader of the entire party from the leader of the parliamentary party. But that's just asking for trouble.



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    #1570
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,422 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713876#Comment_120713876

    Now you are talking about the DUP who have a party leader who does not even have a seat in the NI Assembly.

    Now they are very democratic - it is right there in their party name.



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    #1571
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713876#Comment_120713876

    Has been done, though for other reasons — Richard Mulcahy was party leader of Fine Gael during the time that John A Costello was Taoiseach. (Clann na Poblachta wouldn't serve under Mulcahy because of civil war sensitivities, so Costello became "parliamentary leader" and the party's candidate for Taoiseach. Mulcahy continued as party leader and served under Costello as Minister for Education.)



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    #1572
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713865#Comment_120713865

    Why are you talking about a Taoiseach?

    Thats an entirely different office to the leader of a political party.



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    #1573
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,165 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713935#Comment_120713935

    Not entirely different, in parliamentary democracies like Ireland. But you already know that.



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    #1574
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120713954#Comment_120713954

    The office of Taoiseach is different to the office of party leader.



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    #1575
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,667 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I wouldn't be so dismissive of the members right to have a say in leadership elections. Sure some of them may literally just pay their subs and never attend any meetings or do any work. A lot of them are not like that though. They're the ones who slog away at the lowest levels doing the unglamourous donkey work, especially at election time, for no other reason than a belief in the party and it's policies. Since the leader drives those policies and acts as a figurehead I think it's important that they get some say in the matter.

    Now the question is...how much say? The elections of Corbyn, Johnson and Truss showed the pitfalls of allowing members effective control of the leadership contest. I think a weighted system is probably for the best, which is how FG do it. That way the members can decide a close contest but not one where the elected representatives have a clear preference (ie the 2017 contest).



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    #1576
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714147#Comment_120714147

    When the members vot 2-1 in favour of a candidate I think that should stand.

    That may be just me, but there you have it.

    Members seem to have been right that Varadkar was the wrong choice at least. We'll never know how Coveney would have done.



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    #1577
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,667 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714257#Comment_120714257


    The downside of having some critical threshold in the membership alone is twofold:

    1. The members can foist a leader onto the elected representatives who is deeply unpopular with most of them (Corbyn)
    2. The candidates run campaigns aimed squarely at throwing red meat to the party base that pushes the party to more extreme views (Johnson, Truss & Corbyn) which is ultimately to the detriment of politics in general

    For the record, I don't think Coveney fell into either category but some future candidate could.



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    #1578
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714309#Comment_120714309

    Not sure what the relevance of Corbyn is. His inability to run the party or the in ability of his parliamentary party to accept him is unique to them. Sure it is potentially a problem but over-ruling a decisive 2-1 majority could give rise to any amount of problems too



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    #1579
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,196 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714257#Comment_120714257

    how did the membership vote to elect MLMD go again?

    Oh, that's right, there wasn't one. Silly me.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1580
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120714426#Comment_120714426

    According to a SF member on here their system is nominations via each cumann and the one with the highest amount of nominations goes before the Ard Fheis for ratification.



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    #1581
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,667 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    Sinn Fein's internal workings are about as transparent as a jug of milk. The only internal election I recall them having was for the deputy position in 2019 when Michelle O'Neill was challenged:


    There were no public hustings ahead of the formal vote and Mr O'Dowd did not give media interviews explaining his decision to challenge Mrs O'Neill.

    No hustings or interviews presumably so that nobody can actually say anything negative about the leadership or the party in public.


    Then:


    Members voted on Saturday at Sinn Féin's Ard Fheis (party conference) however the party faced criticism for a decision not to publish the results.

    Sinn Féin president Mary Lou McDonald had rejected any suggestion that the party was being secretive.

    She said her party's vote was "an internal matter" and it had "concluded".


    They then backtracked and decided to actually give the results out.


    source



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    #1582
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,196 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    @FrancieBrady so did anyone get nominated in opposition to MLMD?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1583
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,356 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1669225372313874433

    FG at 18% in the latest Irish Times poll. More pressure on Leo.



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    #1584
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716182#Comment_120716182

    Not that I am aware of.

    She was the frontrunner and favourite with the media for a long time.



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    #1585
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716666#Comment_120716666

    Almost 4 points down on GE figures. 3 down on FF. Somebody is doing it wrong in FG.



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    #1586
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,094 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120716666#Comment_120716666

    Not really though. IMO the key result from these polls for FG is the combined FF/FG figure. As long as that's in or around 40% the two parties should have a shot at forming another government. I don't see why it matters much if one party is a few points ahead of the other. And if the opportunity is there to put together another FF/FG government but FF want to do something else, well that's hardly Leo's fault...



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    #1587
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    It's time for FG to move on Varadkar. He's a total liability with zero leadership abilities and even lower political nous and talent. He should have been removed having led them to their worst result in the 2020 election since 1948 (in terms of first preference votes) and he would have been had the only reason the present government was formed been other than to keep SF out.

    Ironically SF are the reason he's in a job in government.



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    #1588
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717032#Comment_120717032

    FF/FG are NOT a political party. FG don't get satisfaction from seeing FF win seats and possibly at their expense. As things stand FF will jump ship from FG after the next election to form a govt with SF.



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    #1589
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users Posts: 16,094 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717077#Comment_120717077

    Even if FF & FG haver the numbers and Martin is still FF leader? IMO there's a case for saying the worse FG do the more likely they are to get back into government as that would likely make FF the larger of the two parties in seats and make the case for Martin serving a full term as taoiseach in another FF-FG coalition ( as opposed to being a junior partner to SF)



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    #1590
    Peter Flynt
    Registered Users Posts: 2,812 ✭✭✭Peter Flynt


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717315#Comment_120717315

    That would be quite the strategy from FG. . . . . 'Let's keep Varadkar as leader because we'll do so badly we'll end up back in government'. They probably will keep him until the general election and I hope they do because FG will be 15-16% by then.



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    #1591
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 67,155 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120717315#Comment_120717315

    That’s just an incredible take tbh.

    It would be interesting to see what the electorate would think if FF and FG campaign as a potential coalition. I don’t think they will, as that would be tantamount to admitting they have merged.



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