Russia - threadbanned users in OP

The Russian Federation has chosen, in the 21st Century, to engage in a War of Annialation with their neighbour with the clear goal to eliminate and replace anyone deemed undesirable. The actions of their troops have underlined their attitude towards the civilain population. This is not just an opinon, this is a grim proven fact that will resurface with the bones of Russia's victims for years to come. Their punishment should fit that crime.

@paul71 Wrote up a pretty good set of terms. I damn near go further and demand that Putin & Co be handed to Kyiv for trail and that Kaliningrad be handed to Ukraine as part of their compensation (much like how Russia got it in the first place).

Paul's terms are suitably tough for a nation that has behaved like Nazi Germany, but it is a good place to negotiate down from. The restoration of Ukraine's borders and the ouster of Putin would make for a good minimum. The Russians have done a good job demilitarizing themselves, but some form of monitoring would be wise.

Ok, lets talk peace...

Because they are going to lose this war they set out on and the losing side takes a big hit. The 'west' stood back too long and the boil needs to be lanced. I'm sure we all would like to get back to a situation where Russians are considered a civilised people and friendly relations can be restored but as of now, they are pariahs and terrorists.

Your friends are already in the war with NATO, they keep saying this for a year now.

And to reverse your own question - do you honestly believe ruZZians can not be beaten by Ukrainians? If you do, then there is a word to describe you (which can not be used here unfortunately).

150km exclusion is a perfect way to avoid future wars, no-one is/ever has been/ever will be stupid enough to attack a nuclear armed nation. Russia can retain its nuclear deterrent after given 50% to Ukraine.

Do I beleive Ukraine can defeat Russia, they are doing a great job of it prior to the arrival of the serious equipment from NATO by sinking their flagship in the Black Sea, destroying and driving away most of an enormous armoured column away from Kiev and mopping up the elements of that column back to Belarus. Destroying Russia forces in Karkiv and liberating the entire Oblast. Recapturing Kerson, draining the Russian army of 100k casualties in exchange for the capture of town of the importance Tuam. Casterating the Russia airforce. All before any modern air defence or armour from NATO arrived. So yes Ukraine are ripping a whole in the Russian army to the point where Russia will need assistance in 20 years to defend against its real treat, China.

Lastly, you are reported because you can engage in debate and called me a lunatic.

The simple fact is you have nothing Lionel, you cannot debate because you will not use reason. You are an apologist for a despicable regime, and you have no desire to see a better future for the Russian people, never mind a better future for their unfortunate neighbours.

@paul71

Also suggesting that your 13 points were "insane".

What exactly is "insane" about Point 9: The restoration of Ukraine's internationally recognised pre-2014 borders? Is it "insane" for a nation's sovereignty to be respected...or is it only "insane" when Moscow gets grabby and wants bits of those nations for itself?

Point 9 is the basis of the UN charter. It is also the basis of all peace in Europe since 1945. Not is it just reasonable, it is fundemental to peace on the entire planet.

Sure why not let Austria have a go at Italy for the Tirol, Italy have a go at France for Nice, Germany have a go at France for Stasbourg, Ireland have a go at the UK for Newry, Uk have a go at Ireland for Clones, Poland have a pop at Belarus for its lost 1945 lands and Finland invade the Karelia.

Honestly Mick and Claires Lackeys just to not engage in the most simplistic analysis.

I'd love to see all of that happen but that's the kind of diplomatic capitulation that only happens when a country is completely and utterly defeated in a war (think Germany or Japan after WWII where the country has either been successfully invaded or all of its major cities have been bombed into oblivion and armed forces defeated). The scenario where a country has literally no other options.

That's not going to happen to Russia for the simple reason that they have nuclear arms. We all enjoyed the recent border incursions but nobody is going invading Moscow any time soon or firing nuclear missiles at them.

Unfortunately "fairness" often doesn't come into it when it comes to negotiations. Was it fair that killers were released after serving short sentences as part of the Good Friday Agreement? I don't think it was, certainly not to the families of their victims, but that's what was agreed by both sides and it resulted in a peace that has lasted to this day.

It is very likely that the Ukrainians are going to have to swallow some bitter pills when this, eventually, gets to the negotiations table. If point #9 comes to pass then the Ukrainians will have done extremely well and I think they'd bite your hand off for that right now. The rest is just fantasy, unfortunately.

I cannot remember who said it a few posts back, but someone said the end of this war will not be peace but it will go from hot to cold and continue that way. Honestly I think that poster is correct, but the country that will suffer the most from that will be Russia and not Ukraine.

I can see Ukraine retaking a lot of the lost territory, but perhaps not all. I am not soothsayer so I do not know how much. There will not be a peace because the the Russian government have no interest in it nor is it in the interest of the Russian government (as distinct from the Russian people). The result will be Russia in a 20 or 30 year permanent sever sanction crisis and the Chinese wolf growing on the doorstep.

A succinct summery.

I have no interest in discussing Isreal in this thread, it is not about Isreal. You are engaging in whataboutism.

So, debate or get off the soapbox. Goodbye.

For the record can you point to any posters who "condemn Russia but will laugh off Israeli aggression"? This isn't the first time I have seen this accusation but I haven't actually seen anyone do it. I'd imagine most posters who are sympathetic to the plight of Ukraine do so because they are disgusted by aggressive bullies and as such are likely also sympathetic toward the plight of Palestinians.

If such a fate were to befall Putin it probably wouldn't be a starting point for negotiations - it could end up being the opposite. How this war will evolve will depend at least as much on what happens in Moscow as it does on the battlefields in Ukraine. Putin is likely to be challenged, particularly if the war continues to proceed unfavourably for Russia. However, what hope is there for negotiations the when all of his would-be challengers are extremists who want victory, not peace?