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Holdover without BDC Reticle or turret

  • 22-03-2022 11:52pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 833 ✭✭✭


    I'm a 150 yard hunter and definitely not a target shooter, so just wondering if I'm missing something.... If you look at modern scopes with zoom ranges up to around the 15 or 16 magnification power, one would surmise that you have the zoom to push out to pretty long range.

    But when the scope is European with a clean 4a type reticle with no BDC markings whatsoever, and no ballistic turret, then I'm wondering what's the point in all the magnification because accurately holding over for anything beyond 300 yards would surely be pure guess work?

    Like I said, maybe I'm missing something but I'd love to hear your thoughts.



Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 594 ✭✭✭slipperyox


    I'd suggest those reticles are for a flat shooting calibre , covering their mpbr, so mostly military firearms.



  • Registered Users Posts: 833 ✭✭✭Robotack


    I've a 308 which is a military caliber but it drops like a stone



  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Wadi14


    Horses for courses, you have a hunting scope reticle so the option for you to hold over is very very limited, so your best option for shooting longer distances is to dial. On a zero moa rail you will run out of elevation quickly, so the option of fitting a 20 to 30 moa rail will help you to reach greater distances.

    The long range target shooter will use a scope with lots of hold over marking on his scope, also the bigger the scope tube the more MOA he has to work with , then he will fit a rail with built in MOA adding that to his scope moa , so with all that adjustment he can dial to longer distances and also has the hold over markings to use as well if he runs out of elevation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,113 ✭✭✭Zxthinger


    If yer only shooting out to 150yds then yer only concern is having good glass that firstly doesn't fog up and secondly has the right ratios between objective diameter and the magnifying power.

    This dictates the exit purple diameter which in turn creates the level of illumination that your perceive.

    At night you eye (if young) dilates out to about 7mm max so an 8x56 scope provides 8mm exit puple thus filling the max of your available puple..

    8x56 scopes are easy to get yer eye on.

    4x40 offers a 10mm exit puple

    4x32 gives an 8mm exit puple

    Ideally the variable mag scopes have too many working parts and more glass which the light has to get through..

    fixed power is fine as hunters need to realise that scope is only an aiming aid and not an inspection tool..

    large reticules like the A4 hark back to a time when reticule manufacture was basic and small objective lenses only gathered low levels of light especially at dawn/dusk.. this a big stout post was solid and recoil resistant..

    Smaller target hit probabilities are increased with higher mag to a point.. 7x44 or 6x42 are grand fir deer but rabbit hunting fairs better with a 10x44 or a variable power scope with higher mag.

    A good reticule can help with hold over and in truth a European 30/30 can offer some aim points..


    anyway.



  • Registered Users Posts: 833 ✭✭✭Robotack


    I appreciate the answers but they don't really answer my specific question.


    In a nutshell, what's the point in a scope manufacturer making a scope with x16 zoom, a 4a reticle and no ballistic turret?


    You can zoom in for very long range but you can't use the reticle to hold over and you can't dial without removing turret caps etc... Just seems like the big zoom is pointless with either a reticle with hold over markings or a turret



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Because I can charge more for a 24x scope than I can for a 6x. A less cynical reason would be a jack of all trades scope. Higher mags can be used for a bit of target shooting as well.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 833 ✭✭✭Robotack


    I agree with both of your points but again, without a BT, the target shooting aspect of the scope becomes somewhat limited... Unless of course you just remove the cap and pocket it and dial away



  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BSA International


    The nut on the butt's ability to shoot at any distance will not necessarily be enhanced simply by using higher scope magnification. I zero my. 308 at 100m. I know the drop at 200m & 300m and use "Kentucky Windage". I can hit clays consistently (+95% hit rate) at 300m on 8x.



  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Wadi14


    The hunting designed scope with higher magnification options, is made as a one fits all option, for hunting under different conditions throughout the world.

    If your hunting in Forest for example you will not need or use high magnification, but if you move to open ground where your quarry is in the open at a further distance you may want more magnification.



  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BSA International


    .308 is not a "military" calibre. They normally use 7.62mm Nato, usually "ball" ammo, or to a civilian "FMJ".

    .308 & 7.62mm are technically different calibres.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,013 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    If we are being technical. They are different cartridges, of the same calibre (.308")

    OAL and other cartridge dimensions are the same, but headspace differs. Pressure may also differ, but that's less definitive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BSA International


    Being even more technical, no military I know of refers to it as ".308" regardless of characteristics.

    "Pressure" would be the definitive difference especially 7.62mm loaded for machine guns. I defo wouln't be putting that in a rifle designed for .308.


    Bit like loading .303 Bren gun ammo in an .303 Enfield rifle 😬



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    Completely backwards there on the 308 vs 7.62, 7.62 is loaded at a lower pressure than 308.


    And there is no difference between 303 intended for a Bren or an SMLE, it is the exact same round specced to work in both.

    There was an unusual round used in the Vickers which was loaded hot, but not used in anything else and marked to denote it as different. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.303_British#Mark_VIIIz

    It could also be used in other 303 chambered firearms, but would increase parts wear due to the higher pressure.

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Different ammo for the Bren vs Enfield, I'll file that one along with bleeding ears from artillery.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭BSA International


    Wikipedia ....... I stand corrected 🙄

    At least ye're not utube "experts" 😀



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,456 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    MODERATOR WARNING

    Ok lads, let calmer heads prevail before moderation is required.

    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,013 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    It’s referred to as 7.62mm by everyone because that’s the actual name. But calibre is also .308”. Calibre is a measurement, not the name of the round. But often use it the latter way.

    .308 Barnes, .308 Norma Mag, and .300 Lapua Mag are all also .308 calibre. But all very different to .308 Winchester

    .308 Win is loaded to a higher pressure than 7.62mm Nato. You can fire 7.62mm in a firearm chambered in .308, but not the opposite way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 924 ✭✭✭freddieot


    The Internet is full of contradictory advice regarding the differences, or absence of them, between 5.56, 223, 7.62 and 308 as well as other rounds.

    Personally I go with what is stamped on the barrel by the firearm manufacturer. Alternatively, some instruction manuals specify if you can use the equivalent metric or imperial offering. The other option is to contact the firearm manufacturer directly and ask them. I did this previously when I wanted to use 5.56 in a 223. In that case they confirmed that it was okay, for that firearm. Never had occasion with my 308.

    God forbid an accident or incident occurs where someone is hurt. Even if the round is not to blame, expect multiple experts asking why the wrong round was in the rifle and giving a slide show as to why it was the wrong one. Other experts saying it was perfectly okay. Eventually a court might decide.

    I'm not disagreeing with the advice so far, just pointing out the potential issues with taking or giving this kind of opinion on line i.e. to use ammunition not marked in accordance with the manufacturers stamp or instructions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 924 ✭✭✭freddieot


    Just to add to my last post. This is an extract from an email I received from one of the largest Firearms and Ammunition manufacturers in the world (that narrows the field). I sought the information many years ago as I had a court case at the time and their answer might have been extremely pertinent, if it reached a further stage, which on that occasion it did not.


    "We do not recommend the use of any NATO cartridge in a gun chambered for the commercial variation of the cartridge, there can be large pressure discrepancies between these two versions of a similar cartridge and therefore it could result in damage to the firearm or expedited wear on the gun itself.

    We do not ever recommend using any cartridge in any firearm whose barrel stamp doesn't exactly match the head stamp of the cartridge."


    If any of the mods want a copy of the actual email I'm happy to provide in confidence but in fairness this was a formal exchange and keeping in mind who sometimes follows these threads I'm not happy to give the origin individual or company details publicly on the forum.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,013 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    That warning would be pertinent to 5.56mm NATO, which is loaded to a higher pressure than .223 Rem.

    It's actually more complex, and the pressure is measured different ways for each and the pressures measured are actually very similar. The the chambers are different sizes, 5.56 is loaded with more propellant to obtain similar pressure in a 5.56 chamber. In a .223 the pressure will exceed the pressure limit for both cartridges.

    We do not ever recommend using any cartridge in any firearm whose barrel stamp doesn't exactly match the head stamp of the cartridge.

    In this case they are speaking in general terms. I don't disagree in general, as generally a firearm is chambered for a single cartridge. But there are exceptions for that too. Certain cartridge and chamber designs are also compatible with shorter straight cartridges. A .357 mag can fire .38 Special without issue. But the .38 special cannot fire .357 mag (but if can fire the shorter .38 long/short colt cartridges).

    The other obvious example being hybrid chambers like .223 Wylde. If you try to only use ammo stamped .22 Wylde to match the barrel stamp, you might be looking a while. It was specifically designed to be a chamber that is between the tolerances of .223 Rem and .5.56 Nato. It can handle the higher pressure of 5.56 Nato. And as 5.56 Nato is loaded/chamber for higher pressure, it can also shoot .223 - although the larger chamber might be do so particularly well.

    Remington (who designed both the .223 Rem and the 5.56 Nato) confirm that one way compatibility. The same does not apply to .308 and 7.62mm NATO

    Can you shoot 556 in a 223 Rifle? 223 in a 556? 

    You can safely shoot 223 Remington ammunition in a rifle chambered for 556. Due to the increased pressure of the 556 round, NEVER shoot 556 ammunition in a rifle intended for 223. Always read your user manual.


    https://www.remington.com/big-green-blog/caliber-crackdown-223-vs-556.html#:~:text=223%20in%20a%20556%3F,a%20rifle%20intended%20for%20223.




  • Registered Users Posts: 924 ✭✭✭freddieot


    I know all this already. I've also seen that portion on line.

    However, try asking Remington for an email confirming you can use 5.56 in a 223.



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,013 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    You can’t use 5.56 in a .223 for the reasons I explained.



  • Registered Users Posts: 924 ✭✭✭freddieot


    Incorrect. This is generally but not always the case. It ultmately depends fully on the manufacturers instructions as per the reasons I explained.

    Below are H&K user instructions for their SL8 .223, one of which I owned. Clearly they allow it without any safety concerns. However, doing so, or not, based on advice on the internet is foolish. The stamp on the barrel is .223.

    A different rifle or maker might likely recommend not to use 5.56.

    I'd say again that without clarity grom the real experts (the firearm makers) then the default should be to only use ammo stamped as per the barrel stamp and that goes for 7.62 308 as well.




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 1,423 Mod ✭✭✭✭otmmyboy2


    There is also the aspect of 223 Wylde chambered firearms, which in Ireland on a licence are put down as .223, but in reality are chambered to accept both 5.56 and 223 Remington.

    Just to add to the whole palaver :-P

    Never forget, the end goal is zero firearms of any type.

    S.I. No. 187/1972 - Firearms (Temporary Custody) Order - Firearms seized

    S.I. No. 21/2008 - Firearms (Restricted Firearms and Ammunition) Order 2008 - Firearm types restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 - Firearms banned & grandfathered

    S.I. No. 420/2019 - Magazine ban, ammo storage & transport restricted

    Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2023 - 2023 Firearm Ban (retroactive to 8 years prior)



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,013 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    SL8 is specifically chambered to take the pressure from 5.56 (as stated in the handloading section). That’s not the case in a regular .223. Obviously if a firearm has been designed to take both its going to be ok.

    A .223 load cannot overpressure in a 5.56 chamber. It’s fine to fire in all 5.56s, The reverse is not the case.

    The .308/7.62mm situation is reversed. The difference are import there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,597 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Came across this, this morning.

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Registered Users Posts: 39,013 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Good find and a good summary of the differences and aligns to what I was saying about. In sort a hotter round in a larger chamber could potentially expand too much. Thinner case wouldn't help the situation. But a 7.62mm in a .308 chamber avoids all the issues.



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