Cycling Mikey

Cabaal · 02-05-2023 09:39AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545113#Comment_120545113

That awkward moment when Gardai prove your belief to be very, very wrong

https://www.thejournal.ie/cyclists-dublin-3018953-Oct2016/

GARDAÍ HAVE CAUGHT 24 times more motorists than cyclists breaking red lights so far this year in Dublin.

The figures, released at a press conference in Dublin this morning, show that 1,296 cars in Dublin have been recorded breaking a red light so far in 2016 – 24 times the rate of cyclists caught breaking red lights (54) in the same period.

If more cyclists broke red lights like you incorrectly believe it would be like shooting fish in a barrel and we'd see far more then cyclists than motorists caught by Gardai OR at the very least we'd see the gap narrow to maybe 2x the different. Not the 24x times quoted by Gardai.

iwillhtfu · 02-05-2023 10:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545329#Comment_120545329

It's not a belief it's from experience and if you honestly believe gardai are actively policing cyclists breaking red lights save the odd token publicity drive then you sir are very naive.

I really do find it interesting how belligerent some cyclists are about this.

Also the timeline of that article you've posted wouldn't be very confidence inspiring. So far this year then references figures from 2016 🤔

Cabaal · 02-05-2023 10:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545470#Comment_120545470

So your single bias experience is superior to the Gardai's proper statistics.

🙄

Nobody is saying red light breaking doesn't happen, it does. But it happens far, far more with motorists as I have shown. Motorists are also a far, far greater danger to both vulnerable road users and other motorists when they do it as well.

I find it interesting how some people are so belligerent to facts and figures that challenge their narrow bias viewpoint.

AndrewJRenko · 02-05-2023 10:36AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545113#Comment_120545113

The real question is why the obsession with red light jumping. If you want to compare law breaking, start by bringing speeding and mobile phone use into the comparison.

A better comparison would focus on outcomes, death and serious injury rates.

iwillhtfu · 02-05-2023 10:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545528#Comment_120545528

Well unlike your report I tend to use my experience as a point of reference, on the other hand you have not shown anything of note. You posted a link to an old report in what in my opinion is skewed as Gardai do not pursue cyclists breaking red lights in the same way as they would motorists.

iwillhtfu · 02-05-2023 10:51AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545540#Comment_120545540

I would agree with this but my point is not so much about red light jumping but how some are willing to turn a blind eye to suit their modus operandi.

Mobile phone use is one of the worst motoring offences I see on the roads. The issue is largely ignored to the point I recently witnessed a garda car randomly slowing next to cars along the N7 and telling drivers to get off of their phones. This is not tackling the issue and is lazy policing in my opinion.

Seve OB · 02-05-2023 10:52AM

FFS

iwillhtfu · 02-05-2023 10:54AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545623#Comment_120545623

Is this for my benefit 😂

Seve OB · 02-05-2023 10:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545629#Comment_120545629

For all the crap above

AndrewJRenko · 02-05-2023 11:17AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545615#Comment_120545615

Lazy indeed, and probably quite dangerous to be interacting with other drivers at speed, but at least the feckers did something.

Cabaal · 02-05-2023 11:59AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545591#Comment_120545591

Interesting take to base your disregarding of reality and facts.

Find it interesting but not at all unsurprising that you've also not posted any stats to counter mine, instead you make a factless claim. That seems to be all your posts are, factless.

But lets use your weird world view for disregarding of reality for other things, I guess it would mean that because I've never seen anybody murdered that means nobody must get murdered. Yes there are stats and figures, but I don't believe those to be accurate

🙄

robinph · 02-05-2023 01:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545329#Comment_120545329

You also have that more car drivers would jump red lights if they could, but if the vehicle in front doesn't then they can't. Bicycles are not prevented from jumping a light by the vehicle in front stopping at the light, yet the numbers the Gardai have still show less incidents by bikes.

There is also likely a difference in what people consider jumping a red light to be. In a car you put the foot down just as the light goes red and hope that the cars coming the other way are making a slow get away and the pedestrians haven't already started across the road.

On a bike you notice that it's about to be your turn for the lights to go green and start moving before the car behind tries to speed past and get by the parked car across the junction in front, but your looking for any vehicles jumping lights from the other direction... And also starting from a standing start rather than accelerating from already travelling at speed such as the car would be.

magicbastarder · 02-05-2023 02:04PM

you're not going to be able to resolve the 'do cyclists jump lights more than motorists' argument anyway, not with any data i've seen in ireland.

you'd need to have someone watching camera footage of multiple junctions for a few days, counting all traffic and propensity to jump lights; and to do this separate from actual enforcement because a) we don't know if enforcement is equal and b) enforcement could skew the results anyway.

you'd need various junctions because the nature of the junction likely has an effect on whether one mode might be more likely to jump them; i know junctions where i'd regularly enough see cyclists running the lights, but they don't necessarily correlate with the sort of junctions where i see motorists running them; it's often down to whether there's crossing traffic or not.

Seve OB · 02-05-2023 02:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546257#Comment_120546257

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546343#Comment_120546343

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546437#Comment_120546437

Is any of you a moderator on this thread/forum?

magicbastarder · 02-05-2023 03:17PM

yes, and to anticipate your next question, just because someone reports a post, it does not mean any action must be taken.

we're allowing the discussion about RLJing in general.

MangleBadger · 02-05-2023 04:11PM

I would think cyclists red light jumpers stand out more as you are more likely to see a cyclist break a red light in the middle of the sequence. As in, light has been red for a while, quick look around, carry on. Similar to how a jay walker would cross.

It would be much rarer for a car to just break a red light. But on the other hand if there is a high volume of traffic then you will see a car break a red light and nearly every junction as they try to speed through in time.

02-05-2023 04:15PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545113#Comment_120545113

Your own experience, while valid, is completely biased and anecdotal (as is anybody's, including my own). It's probably impossible to get a valid figure for whoever breaks red lights more often. Controlled studies across the world in various different cultures and climates disagree with you, however, cyclists are overwhelmingly more likely to abide by traffic laws than those in cars.

Link - Motorists break (slightly) more rules than cyclists, with a far greater toll on the populace.

Link - Cyclists break FAR fewer road rules than motorists

Link - Cyclists are more law-abiding than drivers

Link - 80% of crashes between cars and bikes caused by drivers in Adelaide

Link - This jumps to 90% in Melbourne

In 88.9% of cases, the cyclist had been travelling in a safe/legal manner prior to the collision/near miss. Most happened at or near a junction (70.3%) and most were caused by sudden lane changes by the motorist, with sideswipe the most frequent cause (40.7%).

02-05-2023 04:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546343#Comment_120546343

Another factor is exposure. If you're driving into town, once you get onto a main road you're generally stuck in a convoy of 3 or 4 cars that are all travelling the same direction. Some turn off and others join in, your group might get broken up at lights etc., but generally you have a core group of maybe 10 cars that you have any major interaction with. However, every single light you stop at will have a different set of cyclists involved. Light goes green, you take off quicker, they overtake, you arrive at the next lights, new set of cyclists. Even if it's only 4 bikes per traffic light, you interact with/observe hundreds of cyclists versus <25 motorists.

On the bike, the reverse is also true. You pass/get passed by hundreds if not thousands of cars when cycling in, and only get to meet the odd cyclists at lights etc.

iwillhtfu · 02-05-2023 05:27PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545909#Comment_120545909

You are certainly and interesting individual.

Again my own experience which despite your comment I'm not entirely sure how it can be anything but fact 🤷‍♂️ also I see no point posting outdated "facts" as you put them. Out on a spin this afternoon I spotted 6 cyclists go through red lights 3 at a major junction, 2 at a minor and one at a pedestrian crossing. I also saw one cyclist cycling through a no entry and continue on down a one way street. I also saw another cycling on a crowded foot path. In the same time I saw one car drive through a right turn red light and one car drive toward on coming traffic to avoid a pothole.

I'm not bothered to argue with you despite your best efforts to have everything but a reasoned discussion on the matter. I find it fascinating you manage to get so wound up about something.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120546257#Comment_120546257

This is true but you will find that motorists are more likely to be prosecuted for passing through a red light due to the ease of identifying both driver and vehicle. A garda will be unlikely to go to such efforts most likely because they wont catch said cyclist or know they'll have trouble identifying the cyclist. I dare assume all these stats that folks are throwing up are populated retrospectively and based on prosecutions.

Anyway I'll leave it there as I appreciate RLJ discussions are based very much on opinion, thanks to those with reasoned debate. The other well.. I wish you well.

CramCycle · 02-05-2023 05:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547291#Comment_120547291

On my commute this morning I seen a minimum of 3 per light change run a red light. That is minimum so about 21 in a 20 minute commute. The only exception was one side road where there were only 3 motorists there but one managed to not indicate and switch out on his neighbour going around the turn, completely oblivious to what had happened. I counted 3 cyclists in total running reds, all at UCD, every other light they waited except the end of the bike lane from Dun Laoghaire Dart up towards Blackrock where one guy couldn't tell if the green crossing bike applied to him. He did stop and look around before scooting across, not entirely sure if he was breaking the law. I think he was but I can see why he was confused.

If anything, I am surprised the level of red light jumping with cyclists is so low considering how many motorists we see doing it in built up areas.

iwillhtfu · 02-05-2023 06:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547369#Comment_120547369

It's very much first person experience that tells the tale, ones person experience may not be the same as anothers. I would not put any weight into those surveys. In saying that though I do see very few cars jumping red lights but I'm not naïve enough to think it does not happen. I'd say Dublin and other cities would see the biggest instance on this along the like of the Stillorgan road and more so on right/left turn lanes in the city.

magicbastarder · 02-05-2023 06:07PM

Again my own experience which despite your comment I'm not entirely sure how it can be anything but fact

are you being serious? that you have your experience is fact, that's trivial. that you have issue with people not accepting your claimed experience as fact is just odd. this is boards, peoples' experience varies wildly, and can't all be fact. you're recounting anecdotal evidence, and people are taking it as such.

never trust someone with a stupid username on a discussion forum unless they can back up their claims.

iwillhtfu · 02-05-2023 08:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547464#Comment_120547464

Aww why is it a stupid username? You've gone and hurt my feelings now.

Well I'd regard my own experience of witnessing something as fact whether you choose to believe it or not is irrelevant. 🤷‍♂️

I see little point in telling lies and as I mentioned earlier I'm more bemused at the naivety of some and then how quick to temper they are when someone dares disagree.

We shall leave it there as quite clearly I'm a black sheep in the cycling community. Motoring forum here I come 😂😂

02-05-2023 08:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547894#Comment_120547894

Well I'd regard my own experience of witnessing something as fact

"Fact"

What you have is anecdotal evidence, nothing more

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anecdotal_evidence

Anecdotal evidence is evidence based only on personal observation, collected in a casual or non-systematic manner.

iwillhtfu · 02-05-2023 08:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548059#Comment_120548059

Oh I do get it alright don't worry. 👍

CramCycle · 02-05-2023 09:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547894#Comment_120547894

Anecdotal evidence aside, you refer to what you have seen as fact, but what others have witnessed as "not fact". Now I get your view that you don't know if I am lying or not but I have seen similar things to you in the past, a certain club nearer my former house was a horror show for running reds on their club spins but my own club would have "words" with riders who ran reds. So I do believe what you say but I do not believe that one of our opinions can be counted as fact. Now if we all seen it, it might bear more weight but the difference of opinion should highlight why anecdoetal evidence is what it is. It might be fact on that one occasion, in that one location but it is not a general one.

Despite knowing this, the idea that someone doesn't see more motorists than cyclists running reds, in Dublin, is bizarre to me but loads of people believe it, even some who I have witnessed doing it.

magicbastarder · 02-05-2023 09:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120547894#Comment_120547894

it was a self-deprecating dig at my own username. not yours. apologies that i didn't make that clearer.

standardg60 · 02-05-2023 09:30PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120545329#Comment_120545329

I've actually found myself agreeing with subsequent posts on both sides of the argument. I too would imagine that most of these penalties come from motorists running lights changing to red, which is by far the most frequent issue with RLJing car wise and would be directly targeted, you'd rarely get a cyclist doing same.

Conversely i could technically be accused of the same thing on the other side of the sequence when cycling, given being at the top i can see the lights changing and so get a head start if the junction is clear.

But if the argument is solely confined to mid sequence it would be very very rare for a car to edge forward, check the way is clear, and proceed regardless of the red light. In this instance, cyclists are way in the majority. It does pee me off, i've seen lads do it when i'm on the bike beside them, and think 'you're just ruining it for the rest of us' in terms of how cyclists are going to be perceived.

standardg60 · 02-05-2023 09:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120548235#Comment_120548235

There's a thread in that MB (if it hasn't already been done). How did you come up with your username and why didn't you realise that it would be stupid to everyone else without an explanation?

Edit

Sorry i should have placed the question in commas as it being the thread title rather than it coming across as a direct question.

CramCycle · 02-05-2023 10:09PM

He does have a point here, why do people not use hands free, whether you agree with it or not, this car is designed for it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIeNrX5G1I

Cycling Mikey

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