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The eviction ban

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    Agreed on FF. Don't get me started on them. 😂

    I'd throw Labour into the mix too. They disgraced themselves after 2011 and focused on the gravy train along with FG.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭SwimClub


    Talk of compliant notices is just an example of the dishonesty now that is employed in these systems.

    A notice of termination is really quite simple, there is a certain number of days notice, what is needed is:

    1. Issuing notice of the correct duration to the tenant so they are given the correct time to make plans.
    2. A signed declaration that this is for ONE of the valid reasons allowable under the lease (no requirement to be specific on which).

    From the tenants perspective that is all the information that they need.


    The RTB can then check up on 2. if and when they like and also check that the landlord does not re-rent without offering to the tenant.

    There is no way in advance that any of the reasons to issue notice can be verified, so requiring any other information on there is pure BS.

    That's all that is needed, legally or otherwise.

    Requiring that it be sent to the RTB on the same day to be valid (why?) or that the landlord should email the RTB footage of them performing the Haka in Stephen's Green or whatever else they might ask for is pure bullsh!t the sole purpose of which is to entrap them procedurally, by increasing the chance that the notice can be challenged.

    It's entrapment any which way you look at it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 370 ✭✭bluedex


    Good point and thanks for adding. It's not a minor factor either. Policy has been to offload responsibility to the private sector, while at the same time driving the private sector out of the market. The results should have been as obvious as what is happening now.

    In a way, the combination of the various contributors to the issue is a perfect case study in how to destroy a rental market.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,281 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Demand isn't a problem anyone is trying to fix either.

    A housing and accommodation shortage is a natural consequence of an undersized housebuilding sector, while at the same time encouraging multi nationals to set up here where they have a skills need that cannot be filled by the local population.

    That and our demographics.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,980 ✭✭✭✭HeidiHeidi


    And I'm out!!

    Just got the news that my sale has completed, landlord no more am I.

    Thank the lord!!!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 370 ✭✭bluedex


    Congrats on reducing your stress and increasing your quality of life!

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,780 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well a lot aren't filled in properly. Whatever the reason.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,780 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Demand is also People choosing not to emigrate as they did in the past. Also a backlog of people not moving out for a decade or more. There's huge pent up legacy demand.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,980 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    The were renting an apartment for 1200 but they came into some money and used it as deposit to buy one in same building on an interest only mortgage so they are now paying a 1/4 of their old rent for almost the same apartment. And the interest rate is fixed so it won't go up but rents have.

    They are retired and were able to get a mortgage. Somebody asked what happens in Germany when you retire, this is the only comparable example of I have. If it's possible in Holland I'm sure it's possible in Germany too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,281 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Population is growing through inward migration largely and this is putting pressure particularly on rental.

    This is no surprise to anyone and was a question asked when there was a LinkedIn jobs announcement a few years ago - where will your new workers live? Rather than build it and they will come, it was they will come and then we'll build it and forgot to do the last part.

    Bringing in high paying jobs filled by new arrivals is all well and good when the capacity is there. When it's not, well what you have is these new workers being able to outcompete the people already here.

    Our industrial policy needs a more holistic approach, to consider all constraints when looking at what sectors to grow.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,780 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    I would dispute the "largely". We aren't keeping up with increasing domestic demand either.

    The population increase of 361,671 was made up of a natural increase (births minus deaths) of 171,338 and estimated net inward migration (population change minus natural increase) of 190,333.

    If we want more housing you either have to attract investment, and not just the top end, and/or build it ourselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,780 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    I don't know but I think because tenancies are much longer in Germany and similar places, the rising rents for new tenancies means people don't move much anymore.

    Pensioners often pay little rent: old leases like “securities”


    But even for older people who live in rented accommodation, it is rarely worth moving.

    After all, senior citizens have often been living in their apartment for 30 years or longer and on very favorable terms, as Braun makes clear.

    Pensioners often benefit from old rental contracts and "because of tenant protection, these are nothing more than securities in Germany".

    Little has changed in this situation in recent years.


    But the Ukraine war and the associated massive increase in energy costs could now change that.


    https://newsrnd.com/news/2023-04-03-housing-shortage-in-germany--%22pensioners-don-t-stay-in-large-apartments-for-fun-and-frolic%22.BkZV-TduW3.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,980 ✭✭✭spaceHopper


    No somebody asked what do life time renters do in Germany ,I'd an example from Holland.

    Here lifetime renters will be screwed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    I think you are making a similar mistake as Sinn Fein when they object to higher end rental developments. A property might be built at the upper end of the market but this will have a knock-on effect throughout. If a better off tenant takes up the property, then they are no longer competing with less well-off tenants lower down, less likely to bid up rents at lower levels.



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    You ignored the points I raised and went off on some tangent about repairs

    Your idea is for LL to offer long rentals and then break them to allow tenants to leave and get cheaper tax. Why would anyone do that? You have created a new tax with regulations and the first question you put a loophole into it to break it??

    Th tax emotion is for specific property which are build specifically, now you want to expand, what’s that based on? What’s the requirements?


    sorry but the idea from start to finish is totally ridiculous and would cost billions in overheads all while you stick in multiple loopholes to break anyway



  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    @blanch152 wrote: "As for the tenant-in-situ scheme, what a way to scare off both corporate and small landlords. It could only work if tenant-in-situ situations were paying market rent. Otherwise you are interfering with an individual's property rights for another individual. You can only interfere in property rights for the social good. That is why you have the 20% social housing provision, that is why you have CPOs which have to go through the courts. Applying tenant-in-situ schemes without market rents is likely to be unconstitutional."

    I'm not sure you would be scaring off corporate landlords. I would not be surprised to find out that it is the norm in places where corporate landlords are fairly common that, when they sell an apartment block to another landlord, they don't evict all the tenants and try to sell all the apartments individually on the open market.

    More likely the prospective buyer looks at the price the development is going for and the overall rental yield.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,780 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    You could build a thousand 1 million euro apartments. It won't create a single affordable or social property. They won't fill them either they are left empty.

    The idea of a chain like music chairs only goes so far.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,161 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    You're the person the brought up the repairs. Did you even read your own post?



  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    If they fill the apartments, then by definition, they are affordable to those who rent them. And, by renting to the better off, pressure is taken off those trying to rent lower down. Supply, at the end of the day, is supply.

    I agree with you though that such developments are not enough. Social housing still needs to be increased at the lower end.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,780 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Worth labouring the point.

    It's a pyramid. Very Narrow at the top and very wide at the bottom. You'll never build enough at the top to move enough people alone the ladder accommodate everyone at the bottom. I'd argue Supply isn't all the same.

    And I accept your point re: increasing social housing.


    Post edited by Flinty997 on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    The point was reinvest, that includes contracts/agents fees/time etc. A lick of paint doesn’t cost thousand but a person spending weeks doing showing and contracts will

    Plus we are not talking about Germany, we are talking about Ireland. I know all about the German rental system and it has no relevance to the current discussion

    You offered forward a long term rental system which would give LL better tax, which as I pointed out would kill the market

    The option you gave then was tenants should be allowed break the new regulations. So why implement in first place?



  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    So if the problem is that it is very narrow at the top, as you say, then the solution is to build more at that end making it less narrow. Overall increase the number of units at the top thereby soaking up the well off renters leaving fewer competing lower down. At the end of the day, supply is supply.

    I don't think vacancies is a big issue in institutional investments and I note that the article you posted where it was anecdotally suggested this was the case, was dated April 2001, very much in the grip of Covid restrictions when not so many were arriving in the country to take up jobs. I do agree with one of the experts in the article, however, who suggested that vacant properties should be taxed heavily but I think this may affect smaller holders of properties rather than the institutions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,882 ✭✭✭Cluedo Monopoly


    That is madness. Certainly empty apartments owned by investment funds should be taxed.

    What are they doing in the Hyacinth House?



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    The reason the properties are empty is because they are looking for a certain client and at a certain rate

    Drop below that and then the rest of the apartments in the complex are suddenly less valuable. It’s not hard to see why. If you have a building in Docklands let’s say and it’s full of C level exec you are hardly going to drop the rent and let a load of minions in. If you do then the execs will move on to the next property.

    plus by the sounds of article the numbers are small



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,270 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Objectors have objected to virtually every sort of housing especially apartment's. The excuses are varied. But build to rent complexes are always targeted especially those 1&2 bed in the centre of the city. These would throw free houses rented further outside the city centre.

    Actually there would tend to be no objections against really expensive apartments as these would tend to be more spacious and the value of an apartment is not a planning consideration

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 862 ✭✭✭redlough


    You build all of them then the existing 1 millions apartment will be replaced and they will move down a tier, and so on and so on which will end up with houses/apartments at all levels


    Thats how it works….



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,277 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    The idea all that the people in the half/million apartments will move up into the full million euro apartments leaving an empty apartment behind them for use is just naïve.

    They will more likely stay right where they are in their already high end apartment, the million euro apartment will stay empty until the high end renter with the right circumstances eventually comes along, and all of this makes minute difference to those at the bottom of the food chain.

    It may be a pyramid, but it is clearly a pyramid with differing rental bands within it that do not necessarily affect each other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,780 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Well it doesn't seem to have worked or this this thread wouldn't exist.



  • Registered Users Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Emblematic


    Yet at the same time, premium apartments do tend to get filled. There is clearly a market for them. No one is trying to claim there are large numbers of blocks of empty premium apartments.

    Since they get filled, it means that someone who is now occupying them is no longer competing at the lower end and pushing up prices for others trying to get apartments.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,780 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I guess if the numbers are small we didn't really need yet another tax for owning property.



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