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The future of RTE Radio 1 LW

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    BBC Radio4 and RTE Radio1 are the only real radio stations left on AM (Long Wave) band. It won't be long when these stations will be removed from LW thus making the entire LW, MW bands useless, Spirit radio 549 khz appears to be totally gone.

    Radio1 on UK DAB will be great for a period at least, we are well covered here in Ireland with FM/Saorview, online etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    That's the UK government's white paper on the future of broadcasting in the UK, published in April 2022, pre-Sunak. It included a review of DTT by 2025; the sale of Channel 4, now abandoned; and reintroduced the deregulation of commercial radio. I started a thread here on it at that time.

    The Draft Media Bill can be found here - Draft Media Bill - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk), Part 5 section 40 refers to the licensing of non-UK radio services on local and small scale DAB multiplexes

    334 Subsection (2) amends section 245 to provide that a digital radio service provided from a qualifying country (as specified by the Secretary of State by regulations) and broadcast by means of a local or small-scale radio multiplex service also falls to be regulated by OFCOM. The Secretary of State intends to specify Ireland as a qualifying country with the effect that Raidió Teilifís Éireann (the Irish national broadcaster) and other Irish commercial and community radio station operators can apply for digital licences for their radio services and ultimately for those services to be broadcast in the United Kingdom.

    section 41 removes Ofcom's radio multiplex content oversight, multiplex operators are "free to decide the number and nature of radio stations which they carry"

    337 An application for a licence will no longer be required to include proposals about the number and characteristics of digital radio services to broadcast on the multiplex. The effect of this clause is to remove OFCOM’s function of overseeing the ‘line-ups’ of national and local radio multiplexes. This will mean that applicants for a national or local radio multiplex licence are required to satisfy OFCOM that they are able to deliver a service with sufficient geographical coverage and which is likely to be sustainable, and that they will act in a manner calculated to ensure fair and effective competition (as required by the remaining provisions of sections 46, 47, 50 and 51 of the 1996 Act), but are otherwise free to decide the number and nature of radio stations which they carry. This change, which reflects the maturity of the digital radio market and the availability of a wide range of radio stations across the UK, will allow for simpler arrangements between multiplex operators and OFCOM.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't think RTE will bother with small scale Dab in the UK now, that plan was devised way back in 2015, as well as the fact that they have since closed their own domestic dab service, the 252 mast also went under major refurbishement in summer 2021, the elderly UK 252 fans were also against moving to dab https://www.thejournal.ie/manchester-longwave-radio-3645057-Oct2017/



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭kazoo106


    They can't have their cake and eat it though, even though I have been against the shuttering of 252. Belfast city centre has even poor reception of 87.8 from Ravensdale and 252 helps a lot there

    There is very good DAB penetration in the UK.

    Small scale may not work well for RTE - mainly because every operator would have a different encoder, the end result being there would be sync delay issues and audio level differences as one travels from MUX to MUX

    Currently though, there is little or no room as in particular the SDL and Local Multiplexes are mainly in vanilla DAB, as is all of the PSB mux.

    Migration of these to DAB+ would open up more space for services like RTE to fit



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    RTE have announced that LW 252 is closing this day fortnight. I'm pretty surprised at this as they have tried to close it about 4 time before but always get a backlash and backdown. Perhaps there's a serious problems with the rig ? AFAIK the manufacturer of it has gone out of business. https://www.rte.ie/eile/2021/0301/1200837-keep-listening/



  • Registered Users Posts: 506 ✭✭✭kazoo106


    Wonder how €250,000 going to €400,000 compares to the costs for being on Freesat and having a $ky EPG number on their platform?

    Anyway, thats it, end of official AM in Ireland

    Long live Star and North



  • Registered Users Posts: 342 ✭✭rathfarnhamlad




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    RTE's longwave TX (2007) is only a baby compared to the bbc R4 one (1985)



  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    Its almost 10 years when RTE first announced they were axing LW252 so plenty of time to make changes to the way people listen, and I'm sure a lot of the elderly from 2014 would have passed away now leaving a next generation elderly and I'm sure would be able to handle other technology a bit better.

    So it will be the end of an era and an end of this thread too with nothing left to go on.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭TAFKAlawhec


    Actual figures for reserving a place on both the Freesat & Sky EPGs will be commercially confidential, but a brief check on a Digital Spy thread around 18 months ago suggests UK£7000 pa for a Freesat radio EPG slot (which was described by a couple of other posters as being a bit high), while their placement on the Sky EPG in the UK is likely to be bundled in with the deal that RTÉ have with Sky for providing content on the platform. Essentially, it's peanuts compared to what keeping 252kHz on the air is costing them.

    As for DAB carriage in the UK, it'll depend on the progress of the latest British Media Bill going through Westminster, there's suggestions that it could become law at some point next year (or at least before the next UK General Election). At present radio stations not licenced by Ofcom are not permitted on terrestrial based/distributed platforms in the UK (with an exception for RnaG on Freeview in NI). "Small scale" DAB has been the suggested mode of carriage for RTÉ Radio 1 in the UK, but this was suggested, at least in Britain, to be broadcast only from SSDAB areas that have a significant Irish diaspora so mostly major cities like London, Manchester, Birmingham etc.There's also essentially no room on either of the two commercial DAB multiplexes for even an additional 24kbps DAB+ station at present. Finally, any plans for RTÉ Radio 1 to be available on DAB in certain areas of the UK are completely separate to anything regarding DAB in the Republic of Ireland, the two are not linked.

    But back to 252kHz, it has long been the case of when, not if, the transmissions would fall silent. With rising energy costs over the past nine to twelve months allied with the likely case that off-air "maintenance" would have given rough feedback as to how many were relying on 252kHz to listen to RTÉ Radio 1, I'd say its fate was sealed especially with the likes of IP delivery being the best it's ever been these days not to mention relatively cheap (unlike broadcast, there will always be a running "access" cost) to rely on from even low-bandwidth connections.

    Hopefully for nostalgia's sake they'll have a special feature similar to that for the MW closedown in 2008 or what Absolute Radio did for 1215kHz back in January before the off switch is flicked for the final time at Summerhill - maybe get Gary King to say "Mine will be the last voice you'll hear on 252!" before the carrier drops.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Do you know is it in anyway possible that the transmitter has some sort of defect that required frequent outages and shortened it's life ? I don't know how RTE could claim a 16yo tx is at end of life when the 1970s tullamore ones were on air 35 years



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    Was it yourself earlier who posted that Transradio went bust a few years ago? Can they get any support on it I wonder? It should be a lot more reliable being solid state though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭TAFKAlawhec


    I've no firm idea about the TX other than it was reported that a new TX was installed sometime in the mid 00's (2007 would be a fair estimate) whose maximum output power was 300kW and was DRM capable - I remember RTÉ certainly doing DRM tests back in the late 00's at night broadcasting three services as a test, one in HE-AAC and the other two in either in HVXC or CLEP audio (those two codecs are now deprecated in the DRM30 standard). Previously the TX setup there was supposed to be two 250kW units that were combined to give the maximum 500kW daytime output.

    In terms of outages, while I suspect that RTÉ did at least to some extent use this to see roughly how many were still listening to the LW outlet, going off air for maintenance doesn't necessarily mean that its the transmitter that's getting repaired or refurbished, other parts of the transmission chain right up to the radiating mast could be in need for temporary repairs. When France Inter was transmitting from Allouis on 162/164kHz, it regularly went off each week for a few hours in the early hours of Tuesday mornings for maintenance - now that only a time signal is broadcast on this frequency, this maintenance time has now been shifted to more work-friendly hours in Tuesday mid-mornings.

    High powered modern broadcast transmitters usually have a lifespan of around 25-30 years or so, but a longer lifespan can be eeked out if the output is run under at a notably lower power than its maximum rating. The 567 kHz TX at Tullamore ran for about 33 years - according to Irish emigrants in Britain, the power of the TX had definitely been turned down in the last few years of its life, I'd guess it was running closer to 100kW by the time it was announced it was shutting down in 2008. Assuming that the 252 kHz TX at Summerhill has been behaving itself and it still running well without requiring a major refurb to get it back up to running at 300kW again, the fact that's been running at no higher than around 150kW output for a fair few years now should help with the lifespan of its electronics to be useful for a potential resale for another broadcaster that wants to keep their AM service running for at least another 8-10 + years without shelling out for a brand new TX. The fact that it's tuned to 252 kHz isn't much of an issue, it should be easy enough to change the output frequency of it, including medium wave if required.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,330 ✭✭✭Antenna


    A couple of contradictory statements from RTE:


    https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0331/1367393-long-wave/

    "The Summerhill transmitter will be shut down but there are no plans to physically dismantle it."

    but here, one of the reasons for closure stated is:

    https://about.rte.ie/2023/03/31/rte-radio-1-to-cease-broadcasting-on-long-wave/

    "The required investment to maintain the mast is very significant......"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    AFAIK the longwave transmitter in Denmark broadcasting on 243 is funded by their equivalent of the department of rural affairs rather than the public service broadcaster DR. RTE 252 would have closed over 10 years ago if it wasn't for high profile people at the time expressing concerns for elderly Irish in the UK, I think it would have been better if the campaign was for the department of foreign affairs to take over responsibility for the service, excepting RTE to keep it going was like expecting an ex girlfriend to still go on dates. RTE have little interest in catering for elderly people at home let alone in the UK.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    RTE radio is available in the UK without restrictions via Sky/Freesat and internet platforms. They had over 8 years to get prepared. They had their chance now to adopt to something better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 82 ✭✭dermo2014


    .

    .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    To not take the Challenge TV thread further off topic, just a note about Longwave during daylight hours. Any Irish person in mainland Europe could hear RTE during the day with a little effort. There are YouTube clips to prove it, and lots of SDR's. SDR's can be great or really bad. I could hear RTE on ones in Sweden, Germany and France, but most are just horrible noise on 252. But the YouTube videos show that it can also be done on a portable.

    Anyone from Poland can get strong reception in Ireland during the day on 225, and Romanians could suffer poor reception on 153, but it is usable. Algeria and Denmark will be clear after RTE is gone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    RTE Radio One is on Sky EPG 0137 and not 0160. I don't know why they got this wrong, they could at least check this out before making announcements.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭walterking


    Maybe you could check too

    I know for an absolute fact that in the UK that Rte radio 1 is on Sky 0160.


    Unless it changed since last Sunday



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,439 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    It is on 0137. It changed from 0160 in November 2022.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Does anyone know what percentage of cars on the road today has a radio with LW ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    Simple answer is 0%, new cars anyway, my car is 22 years old and its FM/MW but I'm sure lots of cars have the full AM band.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The proportion that have LW that actually works over the electrical noise is going to be a fraction of the fraction that claim to have it. I have a single "AM" band on mine that has both but you're never going to tune anything in, unless you're actually in Summerhill looking at the mast.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Mentioning Summerhill, is there anyone in that area with a communications receiver, who could check for harmonics on 504 and 756 kHz?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The closure date of April 14 for RTE 252 is almost exactly 20 years to the day that RTE R1 was first heard on longwave https://forums.digitalspy.com/discussion/57831/rte-radio-1-on-252-now



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,193 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    They've corrected the recorded announcement that goes out every so often. I heard it on the first day and it was read by a woman but it's now a male voice and says 0137.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Does this mast have any potential to be rented out to broadband and mobile phone companies like the Athlone one ? Would it suit 4 & 5g cells ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭webwayz


    Looks like RTE are playing the Climate Change excuse https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/radio/rte-radio-1-to-stop-broadcasting-on-long-wave-over-climate-and-cost-factors-42412461.html a sure sign they are losing the argument that they have to add additional reasons



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yeah apparently the closure has the full support of Ministers Catherine Martin and Eamon Ryan due to the climate change angle.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    What time on Friday the 14th is LW252 closing down?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21 letovo3275


    Who are they losing the argument with? doesn't seem like anyone cares that 252 closing.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If the Seanad was sitting this week, you'd have a load of misinformed senators saying that the upcoming closure of "Atlantic 252" wss an attack on the elderly https://mobile.twitter.com/EndaOKane/status/1367592325216563201



  • Registered Users Posts: 21 letovo3275




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Déjà vu. A new petition has been launched calling for RTE/the department to "postpone" the closure of 252. I remember when RTE first announced it's closure about 10 years ago, a spokesperson for the campaign said at the time they would be happy if it continued for just 5 more years https://www.change.org/p/don-t-cut-off-the-irish-in-britain-postpone-rte-s-longwave-252-shutdown



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,395 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    At some point people need to start giving "the elderly" some credit. If they want to listen to rte they have options with sky, virgin, freesat and smart speakers/wireless radios. My parents are in their 70s, i have aunts/uncles in their 80s. They are well able to use any of those services.



  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    I'd be more in favour if they kept 567khz, but no amount of pressure was going to tell RTE to keep MW on.

    And this time nothing is going to persuade RTE to keep LW going any longer either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭TAFKAlawhec


    As I mentioned in a similar thread to this in the Radio sub-forum...

    "If any other Irish public body or semi-state enterprise was found to be spending €250k - 400k per year to serve a small amount of refusniks with a service that was already being provided to them via several other alternative methods then it would quite rightly in 99%+ of cases be seen as an obscene waste of money that could be put to far better use."

    IMO it would be far better for Irish community groups in GB to get self-organised into helping get things set up for those whom either don't have any alternative method to listen to RTÉ Radio 1 at present in their home and have no easy means to makes such changes themselves. Pretty much every other foreign group of nationalities in Britain have in recent years had to deal with their domestic stations from home not being available on MW or LW and thus unlistenable other than via satellite or internet, not to mention that Irish emigrants that left to go much further away than Britain never got such a similar link to home. Perhaps maybe ask the Dept. for Foreign Affairs for possible monetary assistance to help with such people (would almost certainly cost just a fraction of keeping 252 on for even just another year)? As others have mentioned, the vast majority of elderly persons can adapt to new technology where their wants change paths, for example my own father is very much a technophobe but has in the last couple of years got himself an Android smartphone so he can stream live horse racing from Paddy Power's app!

    Other than that, I remember here back in 2012 with the TV Digital Switch Over/Analogue Switch Off complaints from some people that had reception difficulties that meant that they relied on the likes of self-help schemes which were analogue only and had no DTT replacement, saying that they should have allowed for these analogue transmitters to continue in the short-term. Back then I made the point that the DSO/ATO had been (reasonably) well publicised quite well in advance, that there was a firm date for an analogue switch off** and that if a temporary stay on the likes of self-help schemes not bothering to update to digital was to be granted, you'd end up with a camel's nose scenario whereby any time a potential switch-off date was coming up, there would be ongoing pleas for "just another while". Thankfully, no dice was had with that idea, the government stuck to its guns. We've had something similar go along these lines with 252 - it has been on death row now for several years, everyone knew it was a a dead man walking. The time has come to say "unless you're going to get someone to pay the 'leccy bill, that's it". Quite often it takes an abrupt change to make people having to get outside of their comfort zone.


    ** Ironically some analogue transmissions remained for "deflector" licences that carried UK channels that still remained in a few isolated spots of the country post DSO/ATO, but these were switched off for good by the end of 2102 when these licences expired.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    Another week and its curtains down on LW252, Rest assure it won't stop there, give it 10 years or so a FM switch off will be banging about once any amount of momentum gets going. The BBC will get that ball rolling along with Switzerland. This will be the total death nail in radios as far as I'm concerned.

    But we're grand for now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Your radios should still be full of stations from Spain on medium wave for a few years. This is a post today in a discussion about La Coruna using 10 kHz bandwidth.

    10khz bandwidth is very common in Asia and Australia/NZ. Most of the stations there are running it.

    There's nothing to stop RNE running 10khz bandwidth and Spain needs AM long term to cover rural areas. Many of these RNE transmitters aren't even properly licensed, it's historic from when pre 1976 democracy Spain was denied any decent AM frequencies in the conferences and it has continued from there. When I was in La Coruña not so long back a lot of vehicles are listening to AM, it's a problem around that part of Spain with FM coverage for some reason and the same exists in Vigo, every radio I saw was on AM. When you drive along vast stretches of motorway in rural areas, AM is all you can get, no FM or cellular coverage.

    UK broadcasters have been asking for 9khz bandwidth for some time and Ofcom don't seem to want to have the conversation. Some of the community and independent commercial stations are now talking about just doing it regardless and blaming "faulty kit" if they get caught, I know some stations have already tried it on the past, such as Bradford Asian Radio. Maybe in the next few months you might start to see 9khz on a few stations who are going "semi pirate" in the UK.

    With how empty the band is now I can't see any reason why not. Unless of course there is the intention to make AM sound worse than it needs to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭TAFKAlawhec


    In Spain, RNE are planning to keep on with MW distribution at least for the time being for Radio Nacoinal & Radio 5. However the commercial broadcasters are essentially letting it run its general course, a few COPE & SER MW transmitters haven't been replaced when faulty.

    It also doesn't help that there appears to be no effective centralised broadcasting licence authority in the country, in some cases "licences" have been given out to stations by the local town hall. Italy isn't any better either, though they've pretty much abandoned MW bar a few low powered hobbyist or enthusiast stations with DAB+ getting interest in some places.

    As for the bandwidth argument, the Ofcom standards limit the audio sidebands of an AM transmission in the UK to drastically drop off by 6.3 kHz. Funnily enough Manx Radio, not being subject to Ofcom rules, operate their 1368 kHz transmitter with a wider audio bandwith, it's at least 8kHz IIRC. BBC Radio 5 Live is definitely running at least 6 kHz audio bandwidth, while TalkSport are limiting theirs to 5 kHz. In my experience you only get to "see" the wider bandwidth if you get a sufficiently strong signal. The soon-to-be-deceased 252 transmissions of RTÉ Radio have a 6 kHz audio bandwidth.

    While I have seen some talk on the likes of Digital Spy about "campaigns" to allow an increase in audio bandwidths for MW broadcast stations in the UK, to me it's very much "What's the point?" Pretty much nearly every boombox, portable, in-car or hi-fi system radio sold in the last 40 years or so (with some odd exceptions**) has very limited audio frequency response on MW (& LW where available) and are absolute rubbish for decent music reproduction. The average Joe or Jane that might still be listening to a station on MW for whatever reason isn't fussed about AM audio bandwidth, accepting its limits as coming with the band. The only people whom might notice would be DXers & other assorted radio anoraks whom might have equipment that can take advantage of the wider audio bandwidth. Everyone else has moved on to FM, DAB or internet streaming. Also, bigger bandwidths require more energy, thus requiring more electric.

    It's time to stop pretending that in most of the world the AM broadcast bands are not either dead or are not on life support with a "do not resuscitate" tag on it. It's the same by proponents of AM Stereo that still think it's a relevant technology to bring to the European airwaves in 2023. Time to let it go.


    ** Odd exceptions include more recent portable radios that have DSP chips where multiple bandwidths are offered, as well as some radios that were intended to non-European markets where large 9-10 kHz audio bandwidth transmissions were/are more common - the North American "AMAX" standard being one such example. Indeed, if a station is broadcasting with at least a 6 kHz audio bandwidth and you receive it with a strong enough signal, there is a definite difference in the audio quality between 4 kHz & 6 kHz even on speech stations. But it just ain't a killer feature for 2023 for more than 99% of people in Ireland or the UK.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The electricity bill for 252 going up to 400k this year doesn't actually look particularly big to me considering that the 2006 electricity bill for running the old Atlantic rigs at 300kw was 1.1 million. Imagine what they'd be costing now at today's electricity prices 😳



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Has anyone else noticed that RTE always close radio networks around Easter time? 2fm MW, R1 MW and DAB all closed over the Easter holidays too



  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Mickey Mike


    RTE could yet change their mind and keep it going until 2030! what do you think 🤔



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Stranger things have happened... as has already been mentioned, it doesn't look like the print media are going to get behind the save 252 this time



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭walterking


    If FM listenership dropped to a couple of hundred people and that there were several very accessible and far superior quality services, then yes FM should be turned off.

    It's called moving with the times.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Last time RTE wanted to close it, the Catholic bishops aslo came out against the closure, they have been completely silent this time, Presumably because of the explosion of people steaming Mass since 2020 https://www.catholicireland.net/call-rte-overturn-lw-transmitter-shutdown/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 614 ✭✭✭TAFKAlawhec


    I'd put it down to the start of the new financial/tax year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    Hasn't that being moved to the same as the ordinary year in Ireland



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