Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

serfboard · 31-05-2019 10:03am

cgcsb wrote: »

It's not 'freeflow' it's at-grade junction 4 lane road, same as Galway's existing N6.

I suggest that you read my post properly before replying.

The N31 is a freeflow bypass (no need to put it in quotes because it really is).

The road you are talking about is the inner city relief road (the N355).

And so, you are actually making the point. The N355 is equivalent to the current N6 in Galway.

The N31 is equivalent to the needed bypass.

cgcsb · 31-05-2019 10:04am

SeanW wrote: »

There are just two little issues with this.
Anyone who seriously thinks that building the equivalent of the N31 around Leeuwarden is going to cause the seven horsemen of the apocalypse to show up has been drinking WAY too much Kool-Aid.

We all have small choices, one motorway won't cause runaway climate change, neither will one coal power station, but humanity is a sum of parts and we only have control over a small number of those parts.

SeanW wrote: »

[*]If such a person really wanted to leave a better planet to their children they would advocate full throatedly for the increased use of nuclear energy. Below I provide a link to electricitymap.org which lists the real time carbon emissions of a wide variety of countries from their electricity sectors. Guess which country consistently gets the lowest level of CO2/kwh without having lots of hydro? That's right, France, which along with Sweden and I think Switzerland, have the vast majority of their electricity from non-fossil sources. In particular nuclear energy and lots of it. Compare and contrast the CO2/kwh figures for France versus Germany or Ireland. And then remember it's been the same story every day for the past 30 years. Every day that this madness is allowed to continue, many many tons of CO2 are needlessly pumped into the atmosphere. For no reason whatsoever. Yet where do "environmentalists" stand on this? Against the use of nuclear energy. Yet doing what we're doing, burning gas and coal for electricity will cause a lot more climate change than building a bypass around a minor provincial city. If you really want to take meaningful climate action, you have to start elsewhere. In the interim, I call BS on your supposed concern for the climate.

https://www.electricitymap.org/?page=country&solar=false&remote=true&wind=false&countryCode=FR
Electricity Map is updated in real time, but I feel confident enough to provide a static link rather than a screenshot because France's CO2/kwh figures do not vary too wildly, 25g-100g at most. Very often, France emits at least one order of magnitude less CO2 per kwh than Ireland or Germany, which has a lot more "Green" influence, and consequently the increased needless CO2 output that naturally attends this.

When you are ready to advocate doing more of what the French are doing and less of what we and the Germans are doing, I will believe that you are serious about averting climate change and leaving the world a better place for the next generation. That would mean telling the "environmentalists" to take a long walk off a short pier. When you're ready to do that, I will take your seriously. Not before.

I agree with you re nuclear energy but this is a Galway Bypass discussion.

SeanW wrote: »

And no provision for through traffic whatsoever. People and freight trying to get between the Western county and the rest of the country will still have to be driven on Galway City streets because there will be no bypass. Not only that, but it will be harder because the streets will be re-purposed for short haul "sustainable" travel. But the key point remains you propose to do this while providing nothing whatsoever for those who simply should not be on local streets in the first place. That's crazy.

Galway has a 4 lane at-grade road bypassing it's centre. This is sufficient. Car commuters can be greatly reduced through policies aimed at achieving modal shift.

SeanW wrote: »

The M50 works fine most of the time, it just has too much commuter usage in the peak.

It also has NO parallel public transport or cycling alternative, which Bus Connects will change, fancy that.

SeanW wrote: »

Yes, and your point was proven to be fallacious at least once. Your figures specifically excluded:
All forms of non daily commuter travel.

Any travel that would be legitimately bypassing the city but not using the full length of the bypass, e.g. from Athlone to Oughterard of from Barna to Tuam (using the old road) would be legitimate bypass traffic that would only use part of the bypass.

You continue to claim that there is no real legitimate bypass traffic despite the fact that your data is skewed horse manure. Why?

I don't know how you got that idea, the figures I provided are the most accurate available. Have a look at the trip ends, more less all the traffic is Galway City to Galway City

https://www.galwaycity.ie/uploads/downloads/news_items/Traffic-Transport/GTS/GTS%20Appendix%20A%20Transport%20Demand.pdf

SeanW · 31-05-2019 4:51pm

First of all, I should admit I am probably a little biased in that all of my driving is for non-daily commuter purposes. Weekly travel, leisure, shopping, business etc. And I rather like not having to drive through towns and cities I don't need to be in, or along 16th century goat tracks where possible. So I find all of this about "commuters" and "modal shift" as if commuting is the only reason anyone ever drives anywhere to be absurd and bizarre to say the least. Commuting is just one reason people drive.

SeanW, that's a very long post so I'll just reply to the bit that's directed at me.
Mullingar to Swords is probably a bad example to work with. How about Bray to Swords though, this possibly fits your point? Then M50 is good for such a scenario. Obviously if a public transport option like rail or metro were available that would be better, as they're both suburbs.

Take it from someone who uses the M50 for reasons other daily commuting - the M50 is great outside the peak.

The only problem with the M50 is that other alternatives were not developed at the same time. Only now are the government considering a "DART Expansion plan" and a half-baked "Metro Link" that Minister Ross allowed to be cut in half by NIMBYs. All that still falls way short of what is required, as such the M50 became a peak commuter-way when it should have just been a way of getting regional travelers of all kinds off Dublin city streets. As far as I am concerned, the entire DART plan is needed alongside DART Underground, the Metro Link- from Swords to at least Sandyford - should be built in full. Yesterday.

But that's a problem with failures elsewhere, not the M50 itself.

Now I can say all of the above and still say that I'm not specifically against a Galway Ring Road. But such a road should not be for suburbian <10km commuters.

I agree, it should not be a commuter way.

I agree with you re nuclear energy but this is a Galway Bypass discussion.

Fair enough, I can take your concern about climate change seriously. I just assumed that you were an anti-nuclear "environmentalist." The problem is that climate change has a great many causal factors. My point was that making better choices in areas like electricity generation are likely to achieve a lot more than forcing long distance traffic to stew on city streets.

Galway has a 4 lane at-grade road bypassing it's centre. This is sufficient.

It does not have a "road" unless you stretch the definition of road quite extensively, but had the N6 and N59 been built as roads I would agree with you. As explained previously, the N6 through Galway - and the N59 come to think of it - are a haphazard melange of Stroads. (Click the video to see the definition). Street-Road hybrids that try to both serve long distance travelers and capture value in spaces, and they fail at both. Look familiar? The problem is that to break up a stroad, streets and roads are of equal importance. If you try to capture value in a space on a road, or if you run long distance traffic onto a street - Congratulations - you've turned a street or a road into a Stroad.

I don't know how you got that idea, the figures I provided are the most accurate available. Have a look at the trip ends, more less all the traffic is Galway City to Galway City

I had a look at the attached image, your data presumably focuses on daily commuters. It excludes freight vehicles and all passenger cars being driven for reasons other than daily commuting. That is a serious problem, but even looking at your data and assuming its veracity, a few things become clear.

The number one start/end pair is Oranmore to Oranmore,
The number 1 daily destination is NUIG, followed by the City Centre at number 2.

The bypass won't go anywhere near any of that. And of course, your data should come with a massive health warning because it excludes so much legitimate long distance travel. Freight trucks, tourists, weekly travelers, self-employed contractors out West who regularly (but not daily) are called to jobs out East (and vice versa) are all excluded. Someone posted a figure saying something like "Only 5% of daily commuters would use the bypass in full" which was just insanely misleading. Though that might not be your argument, if so, my bad.

cgcsb · 31-05-2019 5:14pm

SeanW wrote: »

First of all, I should admit I am probably a little biased in that all of my driving is for non-daily commuter purposes. Weekly travel, leisure, shopping, business etc. And I rather like not having to drive through towns and cities I don't need to be in, or along 16th century goat tracks where possible. So I find all of this about "commuters" and "modal shift" as if commuting is the only reason anyone ever drives anywhere to be absurd and bizarre to say the least. Commuting is just one reason people drive.

In the case of Galway, the vast majority of peak hour trips are commutes. If the tiny number of long distance journeys are to be used to justify the proposed road, then there's no way a CBA will pass. The only way any significant traffic will materialise on this road is if it accommodates commuters.

SeanW wrote: »

Take it from someone who uses the M50 for reasons other daily commuting - the M50 is great outside the peak.

The only problem with the M50 is that other alternatives were not developed at the same time. Only now are the government considering a "DART Expansion plan" and a half-baked "Metro Link" that Minister Ross allowed to be cut in half by NIMBYs. All that still falls way short of what is required, as such the M50 became a peak commuter-way when it should have just been a way of getting regional travelers of all kinds off Dublin city streets. As far as I am concerned, the entire DART plan is needed alongside DART Underground, the Metro Link- from Swords to at least Sandyford - should be built in full. Yesterday.

But that's a problem with failures elsewhere, not the M50 itself.
I agree, it should not be a commuter way.

agreed

SeanW wrote: »

Fair enough, I can take your concern about climate change seriously. I just assumed that you were an anti-nuclear "environmentalist." The problem is that climate change has a great many causal factors. My point was that making better choices in areas like electricity generation are likely to achieve a lot more than forcing long distance traffic to stew on city streets.

Actually this isn't true, 43% of final energy demand in Ireland is transport and only 21% is electricity consumption (the lines between that are being blurred). Of our electricity generation, on average, 30% is renewables, 50% is Gas (a low carbon fuel) and the remainder is coal and peat. Compare this to transport, the vast majority of trips both in cars and on public transport are powered by fossil fuels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

SeanW wrote: »

It does not have a "road" unless you stretch the definition of road quite extensively, but had the N6 and N59 been built as roads I would agree with you. As explained previously, the N6 through Galway - and the N59 come to think of it - are a haphazard melange of Stroads. (Click the video to see the definition). Street-Road hybrids that try to both serve long distance travelers and capture value in spaces, and they fail at both. Look familiar? The problem is that to break up a stroad, streets and roads are of equal importance. If you try to capture value in a space on a road, or if you run long distance traffic onto a street - Congratulations - you've turned a street or a road into a Stroad.

ehhh ok...

SeanW wrote: »

I had a look at the attached image, your data presumably focuses on daily commuters.

Now why would assume that?

SeanW wrote: »

It excludes freight vehicles and all passenger cars being driven for reasons other than daily commuting.

Nope

SeanW wrote: »

That is a serious problem, but even looking at your data and assuming its veracity, a few things become clear.
The number one start/end pair is Oranmore to Oranmore,

The number 1 daily destination is NUIG, followed by the City Centre at number 2.

The bypass won't go anywhere near any of that. And of course, your data should come with a massive health warning because it excludes so much legitimate long distance travel. Freight trucks, tourists, weekly travelers, self-employed contractors out West who regularly (but not daily) are called to jobs out East (and vice versa) are all excluded. Someone posted a figure saying something like "Only 5% of daily commuters would use the bypass in full" which was just insanely misleading. Though that might not be your argument, if so, my bad.

So your argument is that the proposed road won't be used for short distance trips within the urban area.

Let's assume your hypothesis is correct:

-The short distance trips, i.e. the vast majority of trips, are not going to be catered to by this massive €600mil investment. How can this expenditure be justified to create time savings for a small number of trips while the vast bulk, i.e. daily commuters will not see any benefit?

-Interregional trips from Conemara to the east and south of Ireland are a rarity, primarily because Conemara has no heavy industries of any kind and a population of only 30,000-40,000 depending on the boundary definition.

-Your arguments are basically anti-bypass.

marno21 · 31-05-2019 5:59pm

The project has been approved by the Government to go to An Bord Pleanala. Beyond this, unless the tenders are vastly more than expected, the cost benefit analysis points are moot

what_traffic · 04-06-2019 4:01pm

marno21 wrote: »

The project has been approved by the Government to go to An Bord Pleanala. Beyond this, unless the tenders are vastly more than expected, the cost benefit analysis points are moot

Really? Governments change. New Minister, New Program for Gov could change the dynamic here as progress of the this whole project is very very slow. Jan 2020 at the earliest for the Oral Hearing from ABP.

SeanW · 08-06-2019 4:13pm

cgcsb wrote: »

So your argument is that the proposed road won't be used for short distance trips within the urban area.

Let's assume your hypothesis is correct:

-The short distance trips, i.e. the vast majority of trips, are not going to be catered to by this massive €600mil investment. How can this expenditure be justified to create time savings for a small number of trips while the vast bulk, i.e. daily commuters will not see any benefit?

-Interregional trips from Conemara to the east and south of Ireland are a rarity, primarily because Conemara has no heavy industries of any kind and a population of only 30,000-40,000 depending on the boundary definition.

-Your arguments are basically anti-bypass.

Actually, my argument is a lot simpler - city streets are no place for through traffic. Full stop. For that reason, I simply do not understand why any reasonable person would want to continue sending through traffic up and down the Headford Road, for example. Ireland built a lot of Stroads in the 1980s and cheap quick fixes and the N6 through Galway is no exception. This absurd routing may have made "sense" then but it does not now.

Your own example of Leeuwarden in the Netherlands makes this clear - a small city as you say that is on the way to not much of anything, yet it has a full, proper East-West road in the form of the N31. That is, a controlled access dual carriageway, but with an N-designation because it falls short of Autosnelweg regulations by not having hard shoulders. Additionally, for routes not covered by dual carriageways, there are plenty of single carriageway N-roads around the area so that there would be very few routings - if any - from the A31 or A32 that require driving on Leeuwarden streets.

So you want to provide more buses and cycle lanes and so on for the city? Fine, but that's going to involve punishing motorists by cutting the traffic capacity of the melange of stroads by at least half. I do not accept that a "solution" involves punishing through travelers for being on city streets when they have no business being on city streets and shouldn't be there in the first place. That's my argument in a nutshell.

It's your own data that shows it will be useless to a lot of daily travelers. Your own data shows that the city centre and NUIG are the top destinations. Your own data shows that the top origin-destination pair is Oranmore to Oranmore. At most, it might be useful to some people in Knocknacarra.

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

SeanW, that's a very long post so I'll just reply to the bit that's directed at me.
Mullingar to Swords is probably a bad example to work with. How about Bray to Swords though, this possibly fits your point? Then M50 is good for such a scenario. Obviously if a public transport option like rail or metro were available that would be better, as they're both suburbs.

People travel long distances for all sorts of reasons. Not just daily commuting. Tourists. Leisure travel. Freight vehicles. Weekly travel to be nearer work or college. Family reasons. These types of journeys can occur at any time, and can start and end anywhere.

But the key point - as you've identified perfectly yourself - is the volume of commuters. I'd describe someone doing Bray/Swords as a long distance commuter. Probably the type of user that many who are strongly in favour of the Galway Ring Road have in mind. Because it's these longer distance journeys that a ring road would be most beneficial for. That's understandable.

Yes. The M50 should have been built as a Dublin bypass. That would have required expanding public transport etc at the same time as the motorway. The same mistakes should be avoided in Galway.

We need to be getting most of THOSE people out of their cars. It has been proven that other modes need to be more convenient, faster and cheaper in order to get people out of the car. You cannot entice people out of the car (a sunken cost) by investing in making their commute by car even easier. There is no example of such a thing occurring anywhere that I'm aware of.

daily commuters are not the only ones using the N6/N59. Your sides example of Leeuwarden shows that you need to route through traffic off city streets with a bypass even if the city is "on the way to not much of anything".

Now I can say all of the above and still say that I'm not specifically against a Galway Ring Road. But such a road should not be for suburbian <10km commuters. Accordingly, the solution to Galways traffic will probably not be a <10km distributor road.

Agreed. Other elements will be necessary.

I hope all of this weighs up and makes sense to you too. The only solution will be getting short-distance commuters out of the car. Incidentally, this is the same solution to all sorts of other urban issues too.

Fine - so long as you aren't leaving through travelers on city streets and then punishing them for being there.

17-02-2023 3:34pm

An additional 3 million in funding for the GCRR for "further studies"

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/galway-gets-e50m-for-road-projects-with-half-for-moycullen-bypass/

17-02-2023 3:46pm

There's a few pieces in the Galway Advertiser this week related to the GCRR

A piece by local Cllr Niall Murphy (GP)

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/133973/a-myth-that-we-need-ring-road-in-order-to-provide-better-public-transport

The figures in the submission for the GCRR to An Bord Planála claim that the public transport use will increase by 28% by 2039. We have already passed that without a ring road. It is a myth that we need a ring road in order to provide public transport. What we actually need to provide public transport is more busses.

Another by Hildegarde Naughton saying the road will be funded

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/133974/programme-for-government-commitment-to-galway-ring-road-will-be-honoured-naughton

Another from Noel Grelish & Leo Varadkar saying "trust me bro" in relation to the development of AT & PT yet offering no evidence i.e. give us the road and I cross my heart, I'll give you some paint for a bike lane

https://www.advertiser.ie/galway/article/133976/taoiseach-assures-grealish-of-government-funding-if-ring-road-gets-go-ahead

SeanW · 20-02-2023 10:30pm

The figures in the submission for the GCRR to An Bord Planála claim that the public transport use will increase by 28% by 2039. We have already passed that without a ring road. It is a myth that we need a ring road in order to provide public transport. What we actually need to provide public transport is more busses.

Doesn't seem to be helping very much. According to a recent survey, Dublin and Galway are both in the Top 10 for people's time lost to congestion in all of Europe. With regards to Galway, the reason seems obvious - most journeys in both the city and wider region and funneled through a single choke-point - the Headford Road through Terryland. A six year old could understand that if you are trying to force everything through a narrow choke point, it's not going to work. More public transport etc. might help, especially if the city is to grow, but it won't solve the current root cause.

serfboard · 22-02-2023 2:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120267517#Comment_120267517

It's about to get worse - once the Bus Gate opens on the Salmon Weir bridge, from Mondays to Fridays, between 7AM and 7PM (IIRC), practically all East-West traffic will go via the QCB (Wolfe Tone being already not worth it due to traffic around the docks), thus choking the Headford Roads and Sean Mulvoy Roads even more.

what_traffic · 22-02-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120275014#Comment_120275014

Not 7 days a week?

serfboard · 22-02-2023 6:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120275682#Comment_120275682

That's why I said IIRC - I've a notion that I read somewhere that it's only to be five, but I'm open to correction.

what_traffic · 23-02-2023 1:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120275014#Comment_120275014

Car Traffic can also evaporate, if bus is far more attractive with predictable journeys times then more City & Suburban residents will do the switch. Weekends would still need a bus gate on Salmon Weir but times could be different from 10h00 -> 20h00 would work for now.

23-02-2023 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120278847#Comment_120278847

you can tell you're no Engineer.

Convert, lad. Nothing evaporates. If what you have is larger than you can comfortably carry on foot, it's a car you'll need whether you like it or not. or you go without the journey altogether & get the thing done by delivery.

Seth Brundle · 23-02-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279276#Comment_120279276

There are none so blind as those that will not see!

There is a ton of reaserch on the topic of traffic evaporation making it pretty much irrefutable.

What makes you thinnk "nothing evaporates" (at least in terms of traffic)?

23-02-2023 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279381#Comment_120279381

Please cite your sources. And I mean that either the journey becomes a PT one or it is deterred or it is carried out in the original manner. It does not “disappear“ as evaporation politically implies.

hans aus dtschl · 23-02-2023 4:29pm

Are we here again? Groundhog day?

@[Deleted User] on a serious note, I found this review of the Stockholm congestion charging to be very entertaining reading, if you're up for it:

https://transportportal.se/swopec/cts2014-7.pdf

TLDR, people reschedule, people defer, people use different modes.

Seth Brundle · 23-02-2023 4:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279661#Comment_120279661

https://www.google.com/search?q=traffic+evaporation+research&rlz=1C1CHBF_enIE1035IE1035&oq=traffic+eva&aqs=chrome.0.69i59j0i512j69i64j0i512l4j69i60.8180j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=traffic+evaporation+research&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

Now care to back up what you claimed about traffic evaporation not being a real and proven thing?

hans aus dtschl · 23-02-2023 4:38pm

On traffic evaporation, there's a lot of published articles, but it's not really my argument to present.

Here's one I found to be interesting.

https://www.icevirtuallibrary.com/doi/full/10.1680/muen.2002.151.1.13

Some traffic really does just "go away", because (for instance) mammies don't need to drive an extra trip TO a school or FROM a school to drop or pick up children who are able to travel the route alone. In a car-only transport system, such a thing is impossible. Just one example.

what_traffic · 23-02-2023 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279728#Comment_120279728

Another local example, working from home.

One does not hear as much about Parkmore traffic anymore in comparison with 2018/2019 - just reducing that peak demand by 20/30% can have a massive impact on the road network.

23-02-2023 6:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279728#Comment_120279728

That's fair. While I disagree with the use of "evaporation" as the description of consolidating journeys from the elimination of "return to origin" ones, I can't deny it has been used in academia to date.

what_traffic · 23-02-2023 8:01pm

YES - I am back to been an Engineer again in Seaslackers eyes. Ha ha

Efficiency of space will always win, always

24-02-2023 5:39am

i know politicos love the zero-sum game, but this isn’t a competition my dude. Cool your jets.

brianc89 · 24-02-2023 9:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279661#Comment_120279661

This past year I take less trips in my car (in Dublin) for three reasons:

1) traffic got worse / it's becoming less easy to drive and park around the city (saving time)

2) trying to save fuel, keep mileage down on car (cost of living)

3) buses are easier use, especially the 90minute journey, short hop €1.30, max price €2

Previously, I could have hopped in the car a few times daily to go to the shop, now I make sure I get everything I need in one trip. Same goes for when I'm home in Galway. If I'm not buying something bulky, I'll take the bus to the local shop.

Just one example of traffic that truly evaporated.

24-02-2023 9:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282219#Comment_120282219

Consolidated. Not evaporated.

Also Point 1) kinda confirms that "traffic got worse" is a major deterrent in car usage, so it can follow that congestion, be it naturally occurring or artificially created, is one of the anticar movement's greatest assets.

brianc89 · 24-02-2023 9:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282249#Comment_120282249

You're arguing semantics there. I would say my second pointless unnecessary trip to Woodies evaporated because I made a conscious effort to get everything the first time.

Traffic got worse cause they've reallocated space to public transport. This has made my bus journey quicker and car journey slower.

As a result, I use my car less and use the bus more. The medium term impact of this will be less traffic on the roads and congestion will balance out again.

what_traffic · 24-02-2023 9:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120282286#Comment_120282286

Agree its semantics. Less car traffic but possibly more bus traffic will be generated - but the economies of transport scale would not make them equivalent of been "Consolidated". The roadspace one double bus (even if its only half full) takes up in comparison to the equivalent amount of private cars is huge.

crusd · 24-02-2023 10:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120279381#Comment_120279381

Why is car ownership and usage at all time highs in the Netherlands so, with much better cycling and PT infrastructure? The answer to problems is PT, Cycling and road infrastructure.

http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2019/08/the-car-free-myth-netherlands-is-great.html

24-02-2023 10:01am

“More bus traffic”? I presume you mean bums on seats not busses on the road?

Galway Ring Road- are there better ways to solve traffic?

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