Russia - threadbanned users in OP

Nobody asked you about your 'feelings'. This is a discussion thread for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. That you are unable to discuss it speaks volumes.

So then we're fully justified to take it that you support the illegal Russian invasion of Ukraine, that you support the atrocities it has carried out in that invasion, the executions of civilians by Russian forces eg at Bucha, the indiscriminate use of heavy weapons in civilians areas eg Mariupol and the deliberate targeting of civilian buildings eg in Kyiv. Your silence on these crimes is your agreement with them.

This 'take' is founded upon your refusal to condemn them or take a moral position on them.

I agree somewhat - all these regimes are repulsive.

But let me give you a somewhat contrarian take; isolating them has not made them any less belligerent or forced regime change. Ultimately we want, if not for us then at least for the poor populations of these countries, them to engage with us and become better global citizens. Isolation doesn't work.

But to extend the box metaphor (😎), sometimes you don't have a big enough box.

Unfortunately, neither does engagement. The world tried that with Russia post '91. It didn't work out too well. Engagement only works when there is a counterpart on the other side who is willing to engage, which we do not have in any of the three countries mentioned. For the same reason, any treaties agreed to with these countries will likely have a very short shelf life before they're broken on some gossamer-thin pretext. As long as a country, or its leadership, believes it has an axe to grind, any type of rational policy towards that country will fail.

I'll give you a counter-argument.

Romania was probably the 'worst' of the Warsaw Pact countries. Communism collapsed, the West engaged and now Romania, while it still has some problems and is still playing catchup, is a fully fledged EU member.

That would have been unthinkable in, say, 1985.

Why not be an optimist? Aim for a prosperous, democratic Russia - that is a member of the EU. That seems impossible in the context of today but we know from history that these transitions can, and do, happen. Look at (West) Germany in 1945 vs 1965.

Engagement, in the long term, beats Isolation. Although the latter may be necessary in the short term.

The rest of the world fully engaged with Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union - 30 years. And this is where it's ended up.

Hopefully they'll get their act together and start behaving like a normal country that everyone else can do business with, and wouldn't it be great if that was sooner rather than later, but until then - and especially while they're illegally attempting to annex a neighbouring country - they can stay out in the cold, and the ball is in their court to change that.

It should also be pointed out that engagement with both Romania and Germany that you speak of only came about after the liquidation of their despotic head of state and the total collapse of their system of government (and in Germany's case, its total defeat in war). Are you happy to have those conditions met for Russia also?

Totally agree when it comes to conflicts, if only by proxy, between its members, although I think to myself that when the security council was formed in 1945, it may have ostensibly been about ensuring a new peaceful world, but was really about shoring up the emerging world order more than anything. And events like Russia getting the bomb and the rise of proxy warfare changed the calculus as well.

Honestly it was the lack of supporting infantry anywhere near by that I was surprised by ,

you may only have one operational tank in the platoon ( not ideal )

Mind you the dismounts could be miles back , and the chances are an enemy squad would have something that could feic up a bmp (or anything even less armoured) and it's passengers ,

You could well be right about Russia directly paying reparations,

I'm hoping they have no choice

Western companies ( and probably Turkish and Chinese ) will make a fortune out of any rebuilding work , there's an awful lot to be done ..

If handled well , it could be the stimulus that brings Ukraine up to the level of a modern developed economy..

It's going to need governmental help to underwrite the possibly trillions worth of investments needed over decades..

It'll definitely help if Russia has to pay an export levy ..

Probably because most of the world backs Cuba, only the US still keeping that embargo & sanctions going.

Sanctions will unlikely lead to regime change in Russia because they still have a lot of countries friendly with them. So long as India, China, Pakistan, Iran and most of Latin America are still buying & selling to Russia, there wont be anywhere near the same pressure to reform as South Africa had.

Who was pushed out of a window in Russia today?

Marina was.

That's all true ,

But in just accountancy terms 30 to 1 ,would be a bad deal, if you loose a couple of million dollar tank , and worse it's crew

And if you're short on tanks in the field,or just that location , it's cash value is irrelevant because when you need it you need it ..

That being said you do what you can with what you got ..the tankers have got to be bold or they're useless , a mix I suppose

If Russia had free elections and a free press, I can imagine that extreme nationalists, unreconstructed communists, fronts for oligarchs and other unsavoury groups would command a majority in the Duma. The "normal" social democrats, liberals, greens etc would probably be an impotent minority. Even Romania had a more "normal" political culture after 1989, even though it was corrupt and an economic basket case for several years.

I don't know what it would take to make Russia "normal".

Nonsense, the Marshall Plan saved Europe. Your economic analysis is just as rubbish as your take on Putin's war.