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Dublin - BusConnects

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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    As of 5pm today, there are no open observation periods for big Dublin transport projects with An Bord Pleanála. The last BusConnects planning application was Lucan which was submitted in late October and closed last week. MetroLink was submitted in late September and just closed now.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Sorry, can you explain what an "observation period" for a planning application is?



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Not sure what it's actually called, or even if it does have an official name, but it's the period of time that a planning application can have comments or observations made upon it. For something like a house or extension, it's usually five weeks, I don't know the length for major infrastructure changes like this.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    For SIDs, it's at least six weeks but it's been eight weeks for BusConnects, DART+ etc. Not counting any extensions due to missing pages.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,335 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    From a reliable source:

    Swords and Ringsend Schemes will be submitted in March. The remaining 4 schemes across April, May and possibly June.

    The source of delay is not purely bureaucracy but rather politics. It seems ABP is being pressured into prioritising rail projects, namely Metrolink and DART+W with a view to having these granted an RO before end of the year. Government is keen to speed up the delivery of rail and big projects generally.

    The first few CBCs will still get their permissions over this summer and additional resources are being directed to ABP from non critical departments.

    Other DART projects are still on ice for now due to cost concerns. However, these may soon be resolved.

    There are additional concerns over construction resources. Currently not enough skilled persons in the country to deliver these plans, nowhere to house them if we import and the impact on home building isn't yet understood, but would certainly be negative.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Government is keen to speed up the delivery of rail and big projects generally.

    Eamon Ryan and Greens everyone. The abuse they receive is awful. They are driving this country in the right direction with enhanced focus on the long term projects we desperately need.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,692 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Sorry where is this coming from? There's no reports that the Dart Plus projects are on ice.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,260 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Good to hear- but do we know when ABP are getting these extra resources?

    What profession are ABP looking to hire to increase their output with all the massive infrastructure projects plus housing etc?



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,260 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Is ABP sitting in the housing ministers portfolio or does it sit across multiple ministers portfolios.

    There should be one minister accountable for ABP if this is not alreadY the case IMO.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,335 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Obviously I cannot name people.

    'On Ice' might be an extreme term depending on your definition. To put it simply DART SW has been ready to lodge their RO since November but have been instructed not to. Similarly, coastal DART have been ready to move to their next public consultation for some time but again have been told to hold off.

    These things could be resolved soon but that's where they are at present.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,335 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Believe it or not a lot of accountants and general clerical staff, rather than people with a planning or engineering background (who are thin on the ground). Might seem counter intuitive but apparently there is a logic behind it and it works apparently. The staffing issues are complex but people who know a lot more about it than I have assured me this is hugely positive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 132 ✭✭DoctorPan




  • Registered Users Posts: 10,260 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Doesn’t seem to be working too well though!!

    ABP seem to be the bottleneck where every major project slows to glacial speed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,335 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Weve also never had so many public transport projects at planning stage in the state's history.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Generally not a good idea to have too many infrastructure projects in planning/construction at the same time due to the bottleneck this can create (though I wholeheartedly support each and every one of them.) A famine to a feast.

    A better plan would have been to build all this in stages over many decades, but we don't seem to do long range planning in this country.

    e.g.

    1980s: DART Original

    1990s: DART West

    2000s: Luas + DART SW

    2010s: Luas CrossCity + Metrolink (could have been done if they hadn't reset the clock by changing from Metro North to Metrolink)

    2020s: DART Coastal and other luas lines + extensions



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,335 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Indeed. Also most of bus connects could be done with out planning permission. They could have separated into 2 phases, phase 1 being the parts that didn't need land acquisition, painting in bus lanes, reorganising junctions and putting in bus gates and phase 2 for the parts that needed more road space from front gardens. They could have started phase 1 in 2020 and be mostly finished by now.

    There is an all or nothing mentality alright.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,260 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Or how about we address the bottleneck by expanding its capacity?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭p_haugh




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,335 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I like Irishcycle but I honestly do think they moan a little bit too much. And I say that as some who cycles at least 6 days a week in the city. They can be a bit absolutist and at times unsatisfiable.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    All true, but the points that he raises are valid. Those traffic lights cost tens of thousands, and this design is indicative of how the NTI are going to roll these Island Bus Stops out across the BusConnects project. They've ignored all the evidence that has been gathered in other countries around best practice and come up with their own bodged design, and it's going to be decades before they look at this again.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Clearly the execution on this has been very poor but I find his arrogance appalling. The lights have been installed for visually impaired people, by their request. It's not expected that everyone uses the crossing.

    I find it disgusting how quick people are to dismiss this entire group of people in our community.

    And don't quote best practice across Europe. There are many cities that don't even have audible beeps at crossings. Perhaps Ireland is the first country in Europe who are trying, at least, to be more inclusive on our public streets....



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,301 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Look, I'm never going to try and defend IrishCycle from accusations of arrogance, I'd think broadly along the same lines, his behaviour gets in the way of his effectiveness as an activist.

    I have zero problem with visually impaired lobby groups campaigning for improvements to these designs, but this won't work, it's actively sabotaging itself. As can be seen in the countless Island Bus stops around the world, no pedestrian is going to walk along the length of the island (and in this case it's an incredibly lengthy island) to get to the pedestrian crossing, they're just going to walk across the cycle track wherever they want. A cyclist that sees this is more likely to ignore the set of lights, because if everyone else does, why should they? And to top it all off, three metres past this set of lights, it turns into a shared zone anyway?

    As I said, no problem with making changes for the benefit of visually impaired people, but they have to be workable. The current compromise sounds great on paper, but is ridiculously expensive, and won't achieve what they want.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    no pedestrian is going to walk along the length of the island (and in this case it's an incredibly lengthy island) to get to the pedestrian crossing, they're just going to walk across the cycle track wherever they want.

    Yes, I'm surprised there's not multiple crossings of the cycle track (even if it is of the signalised variety).



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,890 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    if the signals are for the visually impaired they're not going to be used much and everyone else will just walk across the cycle lane when it's clear, as happens at all the existing island bus stops. I think it's overkill, but then I'm not blind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,463 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    We have to cater for all users, be they cars, public transport, cyclists, pedestrians or the visually impaired. Ironic that we have a group that campaigns for specific provision for cyclists complaining about specific provision for visually impaired pedestrians.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Ironic that we have a group that campaigns for specific provision for cyclists complaining about specific provision for visually impaired pedestrians

    This is exactly my issue on this item. Clearly the execution of these works is poor, but there is a general insensitivity to the intended purpose of these crossings.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    As for the zebra crossing markings AND lights - wtf???!!!!

    Who has right of way?! The zebra crossing gives right of way at all times to pedestrians, but the cyclist will only see a green (or red) bike traffic light.

    What a mess.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,814 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Surely a single sign at the start of the bus stop island saying "give way to pedestrians" and maybe some hatching or something on that section of the cycle lane to differentiate it would do the job. The set up with the lights is a joke, it won't solve any issues but makes the place look shıte.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Whatever about the intention of the bus island traffic lights for visually impaired, the fact that cyclists are directed onto the pedestrian footpath at the junction (to turn left) makes a total mockery of it.

    A tick box exercise with an end result that no one is happy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,335 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Totally agree a waste of money and litering our public realm with yet more poles and these are placed where pedestrians have no safe way of crossing the actual road but a signalled crossing is required for a suburban one way cycle lane. Bonkers stuff.



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