30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

Roadhawk · 11-02-2023 10:08PM

Just reading some of the comments here and really cant hold this one in...since circa 2018-2019 the 30km has just barffed all over Dublin causing mayhem on main roads (perfectly acceptable on smaller residential estates). I have my own opinions on why the 30km limit implemented the way it was with so called "public consultation"...

Needs to be called out...the road deaths per year are not dropping with the 30km limit (even with less vehicle usage during Covid19 lockdowns etc)...There is no use to a 30km limit...it was a tick box exercise with no result.

11-02-2023 10:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120230251#Comment_120230251

With zero enforcement no other result is possible.

Cover the gaff in speed cameras and watch compliance sky rocket

magicbastarder · 12-02-2023 12:07AM

30km/h on 'main' roads? which ones?

Qŵèrþÿ · 13-02-2023 06:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120079843#Comment_120079843

I’m 31.

Me, my mam and my sister and my aunty and cousin walked to school from the get go. When I turned 9, we all went without my mam and aunty.

I cycled my bike and my sister and cousin walked together.

I continued this habit until I finished secondary school in 2008.

My female friends in secondary school never cycled, their excuse was the uniform, but that’s going off topic now.

Seth Brundle · 13-02-2023 08:43PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120237079#Comment_120237079

. .

15-02-2023 12:17AM

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklow/news/councillors-back-call-for-30kmh-speed-zones-outside-local-schools-41059183.html

Councillor Lourda Scott put forward a motion at the October meeting, which received the backing of all councillors. Cllr Scott’s motion was as follows: “that Greystones Municipal District supports the implementation of 30km/h speed limits, or periodic 30km/h zones, around all schools within the district in order to encourage more walking and cycling to school, reduce air and noise pollution, and reduce the severity of injury should any collisions occur”.

Not sure how feasible periodic speed limits are.

Decoda · 15-02-2023 06:24AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120242120#Comment_120242120

And how is this to be funded? Its at least €3,500 per periodic speed limit sign with a minimum of 2 signs per school, with approx 110 schools in Co. Wicklow that's going to be about €750,000. Am I right in thinking all schools in Co. Kilkenny already have periodic speed limit zones around their schools and have had them for quite some time so the precedent has already been set?

https://maps.app.goo.gl/8RW7CkofyyBMyNxE6 - Church Hill NS

https://maps.app.goo.gl/upQs5J3XWGbTRnyu7 - Gowran

https://maps.app.goo.gl/FApMP681F9BbBKnv8 - Paulstown

magicbastarder · 15-02-2023 10:46AM

€750k doesn't sound like a lot to cover 110 schools, based on one pedestrian crossing costing €200k:

https://dublininquirer.com/2022/04/13/in-finglas-pedestrian-traffic-signals-installed-last-year-for-more-than-200-000-remain-off-unused

16-02-2023 07:34PM

Something I hadn't spotted previously, but the RSA & Dept of Transport has (or will have) a group working on a 30kph default speed limit in urban areas

Q4 2022 was when it was to be established, no clue on when it's supposed to publish anything

16-02-2023 07:56PM

This initiative is connected to United Nations Agenda 21 and the Sustainable Development Goals. Mostly designed to limit the number of cars on the road in general, but especially in urban and city areas. Basically, by limiting the speed to 30k, a lot of people will find it too limiting and frustrating, so will give up the car altogether. It is hoped people will be encouraged away from private car use and ownership, and move onto public transport and bicycles instead.

There's NGOs dedicated to this. '20's Plenty For Us' in the UK, and 'Love 30' for countries like Ireland dealing in km/h. I've seen some of their people commenting on local community message boards about how great it will be for the environment, how going 30k actually results in traffic moving faster etc etc, lol.

https://www.love30.ie/

User142 · 16-02-2023 08:41PM

Driving in urban Ireland, doing temporary stints at 50-60km/h before sitting in queues at junctions, waiting for large enough breaks in other 50-60km/h traffic is so relaxing. There's be nothing more frustrating when traffic is moving slower and you need a smaller gap on roundabouts and junctions to get out. It would ruin the average motorists day so much they'd buy a bus ticket.

AndrewJRenko · 16-02-2023 09:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120079635#Comment_120079635

Is there a need to drive at more than 30 kph around schools at 11pm on a Sunday night?

AndrewJRenko · 16-02-2023 09:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120089873#Comment_120089873

What was the RSA definition of 'culpability' that resulted in that 70% figure you're quoting there please?

SeanW · 16-02-2023 10:05PM

Periodic speed limits around schools can make sense depending on what the schedule is and how far out they apply. I think most sane people would agree that there are different circumstances at say, the final bell on a school day as opposed to later in the evening.

SeanW · 17-02-2023 07:43PM

@AndrewJRenko weren't you the one who routinely falsely accused 2.8 million people of collectively "killing 2 or 3 people every week?" NVM, I'll bite.

As for the school at 11PM, I've already proven that crawling for no reason wastes not just time but a significant amount of fuel.

https://myengineeringworld.net/2012/05/optimal-speed-for-minimum-fuel.html

Perhaps you think that petrol grows on trees and that climate change is a myth? That's the only logical reason I can find for making people crawl for no reason.

As to the RSA investigation where they found that 70% of pedestrian fatalities are caused by the actions of pedestrians, as near as I can determine the conclusion had already been reached in the Garda Investigation Files. On Slide 19 they explain that they charted based on 178 fatalities over a number of years and they base that on there being a complete Garda Investigation File. As explained on Slide 12 this includes: Garda Investigation Report, Forensic Collision Investigation (FCI) Report, PSV Report, Autopsy Report, Toxicology Report, Deposition Statement, Coroner’s Verdict, Death Certificate.

Not that it matters that much because even if the driver was 100% culpable in all cases, there would still not be enough of them to justify punishing the other 2.8+ million Irish drivers that were not even involved in these incidents, let alone the cause of them. The 70% figure just goes to show just how much "motorists" get blamed by some for things they didn't cause.

magicbastarder · 17-02-2023 08:15PM

why are you quoting as 'proof' that driving at 60-80km/h is more fuel efficient, when we're talking about a very different context to the conditions that chap is? he's talking about open road driving with little braking, which is the opposite to what happens in urban areas.

and the average speed in dublin is already a fraction of that 60-70km/h anyway. as low as 10km/h in rush hour, and currently about 20km/h after rush hour with the roads quite clear (on the usual test route i'd use, DCU to UCD, which is 95% on 50km/h roads anyway).

it may well be the case that in urban environments, due to the stop start nature of the driving, maxing out at 30 is more fuel efficient than maxing out at 50. because if you build up to 50, it means you're likely to have to brake harder at the next set of lights/junction, and braking is wasted fuel in a sense.

reaching the hypothetical average of 60-80km/h from the article you quote, in city driving, would probably involve getting the car up to 200km/h or higher, and almost instantly slamming on at the next lights. and that would be utter, utter murder on fuel efficiency.

in short, you cannot apply calculations on fuel efficiency in open road driving, to city driving.

magicbastarder · 17-02-2023 08:23PM

that RSA report is very thin on how culpability was decided. but the RSA reveals its usual colours with the statement that '98% of pedestrians were not wearing hi-vis clothing' which would certainly imply it's part of their calculations; it states that 57% of the fatalities in consideration were on urban roads.

also; to what extent can the gardai determine culpability? i would have assumed that a (final?) decision on that would lie with the coroner/courts, though i assume the gardai can issue their recommendations.

SeanW · 17-02-2023 08:46PM

Not every journey is at peak times and not every urban area road nationwide will have red lights every 200 metres. Outside of city centre environments you can easily find urban roads with little or no interruption for 500 metres or more - especially in Ireland where the definition of "urban area" often stretches significantly into the countryside. I posted earlier an extreme example of the N59 in Galway City, where the urban speed limit starts 2 kilometres before the first traffic light. Another example in Dublin, the R109 between St. Mary's nursing home and Islandbridge runs uninterrupted for 1.9km - and this road was to have its speed limit cut in half under DCCs "Love 30" campaign. Even where there are traffic lights, they aren't always red, especially on main roads.

As to the RSA, I suspect that determination of culpability was made by the Gardai or someone else during the actual investigation, hence the RSA only included incidents where there was a Garda Investigation File.

User142 · 17-02-2023 08:47PM

https://twitter.com/willnorman/status/1626487302011645953

Fantastic graphic from London that shows how when those darn pedestrians do stupid stuff they get hurt and die less when the limit is 20mph. Nice that London has great public transport and cycle infrastructure to reduce the climate change causing fossil fuels use everyone is very concerned about unnecessary burning of.

AndrewJRenko · 17-02-2023 10:18PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120250631#Comment_120250631

I think most sane people would appreciate how difficult it is to get drivers to stick to speed limits at the best of times, let alone what would happen if drivers had to deal with the complexity of speed limits changing on different days and times.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120254696#Comment_120254696

So culpability comes from the Garda view? We've all seen what Garda view means, the view from behind the windscreen, fond of classic victim blaming tactics and full of excuses for not actually enforcing traffic laws.

SeanW · 17-02-2023 11:28PM

Other jurisdictions seem to manage just fine with variable speed limits around schools, and it's difficult to imagine any sane person asserting that Ireland is so radically different. Aside from the quantifiable things like road safety, where Ireland is better than just about any average.

As to your bizarre rant about Garda not enforcing traffic laws, assuming for the sake of argument that it is true, cyclists should be grateful for this because it gives them carte blanche to menace pedestrians out of their way on the footpath. Which they do with regular merry abandon.

Regarding the post about London, the comparison is not really apt as Greater London has a higher population and population density than anywhere in Ireland. Naturally if everywhere is more crowded, different measures are required. Even still, and taking the graphic at face value, it shows that serious incidents (involving serious injury or death) declined only marginally from a very small number (94), to a slightly smaller very small number (71).

Repeat the same experiment on a semi-rural arterial route in this country and the results would very likely be even less impressive. And none of it justifying punishing 2.8 million people for incidents they wouldn't even be involved in - let alone the cause of - under either circumstance.

18-02-2023 01:06AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120255467#Comment_120255467

I'm not sure you want to be using road safety in the USA as a basis for an argument given the utter disregard for anyone not in a vehicle there

Sarn · 18-02-2023 01:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120254704#Comment_120254704

Seeing as they introduced the lower limit in March 2020, I wonder how much Covid contributed to the reductions over the period. It will be interesting to see what level of reductions are maintained.

Unrealistic · 09-03-2023 08:26PM

We've had lots of snow in Galway today and I spent a couple of hours driving around in it. For all the talk about cars not being designed to be driven at 30km/h, and it being too difficult to do, most drivers seemed to be able to manage it when they needed to.

10-03-2023 02:26PM

From another thread, a good read on the outcomes of implementing 30k limits

https://www.europeandatajournalism.eu/eng/News/Data-news/None-of-the-European-cities-that-lowered-the-speed-limit-to-30-km-h-regrets-it

SeanW · 15-03-2023 12:02AM

That reads like a propaganda piece, i.e. that the "journalists" started with the presupposition that 30kph limits should be applied everywhere, and then set out to cherry-pick the information that they could use to push the pre-ordained hypothesis. They didn't ask, for example, how many person-hours were being wasted crawling everywhere, how much fuel was being wasted forcing drivers to cruise at such a low speed. These were questions I would have expected any actual journalist to ask.

They reveal their bias with this line:

90 percent of accidents resulting in injuries were caused by vehicles, and most of the victims were blameless individuals, pedestrians or cyclists.

Except we know for a fact that many collisions are caused by people not in vehicles, in Ireland for example the RSA estimates that 70% of fatal pedestrian-vehicle incidents are caused by the pedestrian, not the driver.

As to the city of Zurich in particular:

On the other hand, some citizens voiced their concerns. They worry that the standard of public transportation will worsen: to avoid this, the city council decided to invest 20 million franks to make public transport more frequent and improve capacity if needed.

One question arises: did the city have to spend money to buy more buses and trams? Because if the slowdown affected public transport vehicles, it would be safe to assume that buses and trams could not provide public transport as efficiently as before and that the city might need more vehicles (using more fuel) to provide the same level of service.

The real question therefore is whether any of the supposed benefits are worth the waste of people's time and fuel that would result, as well as the consequences of the slowdown for and decreased efficiency of public transport? Your article made no effort to answer that question.

Kiteview · 15-03-2023 12:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120359907#Comment_120359907

The RSA report does not state that “70% of fatal pedestrian-vehicle incidents are caused by the pedestrian, not the driver”. That’s you “cherry-picking the information that you can use to push the pre-ordained hypothesis”.

The report refers to culpability which as the report points out can be an error. An error though does not cause an accident by itself. For instance, the highest culpable action by pedestrians is classified as “crossing the road” - but that makes no reference to any other factor such as the speed the motorist involved was travelling at. A motorist travelling at a slower speed would be far less likely to hit a pedestrian than one travelling with the attitude that they are being “punished” due to having to obey a 50km/hr speed limit - and that of course presumes they are travelling below that speed limit and that the data records the speed of the motorist accurately (and it almost certainly does not since motorists have a strong incentive to underreport their speed in an accident).

Equally the report classifies a failure to wear reflective gear after dark as one of their “culpable factors” - even though there is no more of a legal obligation to do so than there is for motorists to have someone carrying a large red flag in front of their cars as was once the case.

If pedestrians are to be blamed for “causing the accident” in the former case then equally motorists should be blamed for “causing the accident” in the latter case.

magicbastarder · 15-03-2023 09:53AM

For instance, the highest culpable action by pedestrians is classified as “crossing the road”

you've got to be **** me? if they're using that without nuance the whole report is suspect.

magicbastarder · 15-03-2023 11:43AM

there was a case five or ten years ago which made me question how reliable those investigations are anyway; a motorist hit a pedestrian on an N road at night (and it could well have been the pedestrian's fault). the motorist told the gardai he was doing about 90-95km/h IIRC, on a road with a limit of 100; but the gardai concluded that he was in fact doing i think 50km/h. which is nonsensical.

blanch152 · 15-03-2023 10:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120360868#Comment_120360868

I don't see a contradiction there. The motorist may well have been travelling at about 90-95 km/h, saw the pedestrian late, braked hard, and was doing 50 km/h when he hit them, which is what the gardai measured.

30k speed limits for all urban areas on the way

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