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Buying a house - No certificate of compliance with building regulations

  • 27-01-2023 5:13pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭


    I'm in the process of buying a house built in about 2009. The solicitor has said she has requested the certificate of compliance that the house was built, inspected and certified as being in compliance.

    What does this actually mean? The house looks like a well built house (to the non-expert eye) but solicitor says it may be a problem to sell if there is no certification.



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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Your post isn't clear. Has your solicitor been told that there is no cert available?

    A house built in 2009 absolutely should have one and if not, I'd be concerned. I wouldn't buy it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭Gorteen


    Sorry, it's all new to me. Solicitor has asked for it and hasn't received it. Has received stuff she didn't ask for and is somewhat concerned. I'm not going to buy without confirmation that the house was built correctly.


    Out of interest, from when was one of these required? Do all houses have them?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,005 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    If you’re planning on getting a mortgage to buy, this could well be a blocking issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭Gorteen




  • Registered Users Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭Alkers


    You can get a certificate of substantial compliance (or rather the seller should) for about 500e assuming no issues. Will delay sale but not scupper altogether



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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    There are 2 types of certification relating to compliance - one in respect of Building Regulations and the other in relation to Planning Permission. More often than not both are rolled into the one.

    An architect/engineer/technician is usually asked on completion of a new build to provide a certificate (usually an opinion) to confirm the house has been substantially built in accordance with the plans and maps submitted with the planning application and complies with whatever conditions there were on the planning permission.

    The same professional would be asked to certify compliance with building regulations which in short means that he/she will confirm that the house was constructed using good materials and workmanship and these works comply with the various sections of the building regulations.

    Not every house built would have been "certified". If they were then there shouldnt be an issue in your solicitor getting the cert from the vendor. If no certification currently exists then it will be up to the vendor to provide same even if that means making another planning application and/or carrying out physical upgrades to the house



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭Gorteen


    Thanks very much. Now I understand the situation



  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Just to add that you could buy the house without certs if you dont have a mortgage but that would be against your solicitors advice and against good advice generally. If there are no issues then there is no reason why the vendor cant furnish the required paperwork. But without any relevant certs you are not only buying the house but also any issues that go with it and then you will have the same problems if ever going to sell in the future. In saying all that there may be something that is easily remedied which is preventing the seller from getting a cert. Some sellers can be stubborn and possess a "there it is, take it or leave it" attitude. I wouldnt let a couple of minor issues put me off buying if the main items were in order but your architect/engineer/technician and your solicitor would keep you right.

    If your solicitor hasnt already mentioned it then you should have your own survey carried out and that would highlight most problems if indeed there are any in the first instance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    You could also retain one of the following to carry out the Survey of the house and provide the Certificate of Compliance (CofC) with the Building Regulations and Planning Permission:-

    1. Chartered Building Surveyor
    2. Registered Building Surveyor
    3. Chartered Building Engineer.

    A Construction Professional should have been retained to carry out inspections of the building during construction and provided the C of C.

    These Professionals could also carry out a Survey of the existing property and furnish you with á Home Buyers Structural Survey of the Property, and a Survey of the Boundaries of the Site to ensure that the boundaries on the ground conform to the boundaries on the Deed / Land Register Map etc.

    Your Solicitor is obliged to instruct you to have a Survey carried out on the property before you complete the Purchase.



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭Gorteen


    But surely it will be very difficult to "certify" that the construction is at the required standard retrospectively? I mean, how can they determine the build quality of foundations, etc



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  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    They cant and thats why your solicitor is looking for the original certification if it exists or indeed ever existed.

    If no certs were ever furnished then the best you can get is a cert that will be heavily qualified and issued on foot of a "visual, walk through survey"



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭Gorteen


    Why would the original certification not exist? Surely the original owner would have wanted the assurance such a certificate would provide? Would a lender also not want to have such a document?



  • Registered Users Posts: 45,762 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    It probably should exist but as i said earlier not every house that was built in this country since building regs came into force in the early 90's has certification. The most common reason for this is just like your current set up where there is or was no mortgage involved. I have encountered houses in the past that had no planning permission never mind complying with building regs.

    But you would need to ask the original owner about what he got or didnt get. I think this brings us full circle in this thread. You say your solicitor is struggling to get the certification so if the owner has it then why not provide it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    That’s easy for an experienced Construction Professional (CP) to ascertain.

    The house is 14 years old and any movement in the foundations would be visible in the form of cracks.

    Firstly the CP can carry out á visual inspection of all the external and internal walls for Structural Cracking in the walls. Movements in the foundations usually cause Cracking at the weakest area of the walls which are around the window opes.

    The ceilings in each room are a 3 mm layer of gypsum plaster which is very brittle and which is contained within a parallelogram of 4 walls. Any structural movement in the foundations would cause some distortion/ movement in the parallelogram of walls which will result in the form of cracking in both directions in these ceilings.

    The CP will check all doors and door opes, because any movement in the foundations may cause rotation at the weakest part of a wall which are door opes.

    There are many more methods which the CP will check.

    Most other parts of the house can be inspected by the CP, in accordance with the Building Regulations which pertain at that time it was built - 2009.

    This is why the Purchaser should retain a CP to carry out a Survey of the Building and Site before completing the purchase.

    The CP provides PI Insurance which will provide cover for a period of 6 years, for any Certification provided.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,201 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    It is very common that such a cert won't exist from original build.

    Certs of compliance with planning and building regs are being completed retrospectively all over the country everyday.

    A professional will be able to pretty solidly certify planning compliance from a site visit.

    Building reg certification will be limited to visual aspects of the regs and should clearly note that hidden or covered up items were not checked and are not being certified.

    Banks are happy with these certs generally.

    I would advise that the structural survey becomes super important in this scenario.

    Getting this certification retrospectively will involve Engineer having to dig out details of planning file and land registry and then doing the Inspection on site. Personally, when doing these myself, I for the most part put the same detail into the Inspection as if doing structural survey. If suspicious of any defects found, I refuse the work to avoid any future possible liability even though the cert would be heavily qualified to exclude x y z.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    It could also involve one of the following:-

    1. Chartered Building Surveyor
    2. Registered Building Surveyor 
    3. Chartered Building Engineer.
    4. Chartered Land Surveyor
    5. Architect




  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭Gorteen


    Does a retrospective opinion of compliance satisfy banks and/or solicitors for onwards sale?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,005 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    The PI insurance of the CP doesn't cover a whole lot though, does it? Lots of people in Priory Hall and other firetraps had their surveys done by CPs with PI, but it wasn't much use to the buyers when the properties proved to be grossly deficient.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood




  • Registered Users Posts: 28,005 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Probably off-topic for this thread - but let's not have buyers labouring under the misapprehension that they can sue their surveyor (with PI) to cover the costs of fixing up their property if things go wrong.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    If there is any misapprehension about PI Insurance, why bother hiring anyone who is covered with it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,005 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    It is very common that such a cert won't exist from original build

    For a house built in 2009??



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    No.

    The Questions are because of your quote in relation to Priory Hall and other firetraps.

    Most Construction Professional will have PI Insurance for al least €650,000.

    If any Professional owes a Duty of Care, and is Negligent, then the Client has 6 Years to make a claim against their Insurance Company.

    After 6 years the claim is Statute Barred.

    I do not know why claims for negligence were not made in relation to Priory Hall or other Apartments, but it is/ was not possible to instigate a Claim after 6 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    Tbe. Building Regulations became operational on 1 June 1992.

    All new houses constructed after that date required a Certificate of Opinion on Compliance with the Building Regulations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,005 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I'm no expert, but as I understand it, the liability of the surveyor is limited to the fee charged by the surveyor. If the surveyor misses bad construction that costs you hundreds of thousands down the road, that's still a matter for the builder, not the surveyor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,201 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Yes even for a house built in 2009, it is still common for one off houses not to have any certification. The system was driven by funding. If you could afford to self fund your one off house, nobody was going to come looking for a cert.

    Of course those houses that were self funded were very often built in a manner that didn't comply with planning also so very often a planning application is required to get things sorted out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    Are you saying that if a Surveyor carries out a house Survey for a house for a client for a fee of €700, and subsequently it is discovered that there is subsidence in the house that cost €50,000 to remedy, that the Client can only claim €700 from the Surveyor.

    Is this what you are implying????



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,005 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




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  • Subscribers Posts: 40,722 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    That's absolutely not the case. If it was, there would be no need to hold professional indemnity insurance for €100,000's

    If a professional is deemed negligent, and that negligence resulted in a house having to be rebuilt, there must be insurance in place of a high enough degree to cover this



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