Buying a house - No certificate of compliance with building regulations

Gorteen

I'm in the process of buying a house built in about 2009. The solicitor has said she has requested the certificate of compliance that the house was built, inspected and certified as being in compliance.

What does this actually mean? The house looks like a well built house (to the non-expert eye) but solicitor says it may be a problem to sell if there is no certification.

Former Former Former

Your post isn't clear. Has your solicitor been told that there is no cert available?

A house built in 2009 absolutely should have one and if not, I'd be concerned. I wouldn't buy it.

Gorteen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120166675#Comment_120166675

Sorry, it's all new to me. Solicitor has asked for it and hasn't received it. Has received stuff she didn't ask for and is somewhat concerned. I'm not going to buy without confirmation that the house was built correctly.

Out of interest, from when was one of these required? Do all houses have them?

AndrewJRenko

If you’re planning on getting a mortgage to buy, this could well be a blocking issue.

Gorteen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167336#Comment_120167336

Thankfully, I don't need a mortgage

Alkers

You can get a certificate of substantial compliance (or rather the seller should) for about 500e assuming no issues. Will delay sale but not scupper altogether

muffler

There are 2 types of certification relating to compliance - one in respect of Building Regulations and the other in relation to Planning Permission. More often than not both are rolled into the one.

An architect/engineer/technician is usually asked on completion of a new build to provide a certificate (usually an opinion) to confirm the house has been substantially built in accordance with the plans and maps submitted with the planning application and complies with whatever conditions there were on the planning permission.

The same professional would be asked to certify compliance with building regulations which in short means that he/she will confirm that the house was constructed using good materials and workmanship and these works comply with the various sections of the building regulations.

Not every house built would have been "certified". If they were then there shouldnt be an issue in your solicitor getting the cert from the vendor. If no certification currently exists then it will be up to the vendor to provide same even if that means making another planning application and/or carrying out physical upgrades to the house

Gorteen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167554#Comment_120167554

Thanks very much. Now I understand the situation

muffler

Just to add that you could buy the house without certs if you dont have a mortgage but that would be against your solicitors advice and against good advice generally. If there are no issues then there is no reason why the vendor cant furnish the required paperwork. But without any relevant certs you are not only buying the house but also any issues that go with it and then you will have the same problems if ever going to sell in the future. In saying all that there may be something that is easily remedied which is preventing the seller from getting a cert. Some sellers can be stubborn and possess a "there it is, take it or leave it" attitude. I wouldnt let a couple of minor issues put me off buying if the main items were in order but your architect/engineer/technician and your solicitor would keep you right.

If your solicitor hasnt already mentioned it then you should have your own survey carried out and that would highlight most problems if indeed there are any in the first instance.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120167835#Comment_120167835

You could also retain one of the following to carry out the Survey of the house and provide the Certificate of Compliance (CofC) with the Building Regulations and Planning Permission:-

1. Chartered Building Surveyor
2. Registered Building Surveyor
3. Chartered Building Engineer.

A Construction Professional should have been retained to carry out inspections of the building during construction and provided the C of C.

These Professionals could also carry out a Survey of the existing property and furnish you with á Home Buyers Structural Survey of the Property, and a Survey of the Boundaries of the Site to ensure that the boundaries on the ground conform to the boundaries on the Deed / Land Register Map etc.

Your Solicitor is obliged to instruct you to have a Survey carried out on the property before you complete the Purchase.

Gorteen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120170354#Comment_120170354

But surely it will be very difficult to "certify" that the construction is at the required standard retrospectively? I mean, how can they determine the build quality of foundations, etc

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120170716#Comment_120170716

They cant and thats why your solicitor is looking for the original certification if it exists or indeed ever existed.

If no certs were ever furnished then the best you can get is a cert that will be heavily qualified and issued on foot of a "visual, walk through survey"

Gorteen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120170810#Comment_120170810

Why would the original certification not exist? Surely the original owner would have wanted the assurance such a certificate would provide? Would a lender also not want to have such a document?

muffler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120170935#Comment_120170935

It probably should exist but as i said earlier not every house that was built in this country since building regs came into force in the early 90's has certification. The most common reason for this is just like your current set up where there is or was no mortgage involved. I have encountered houses in the past that had no planning permission never mind complying with building regs.

But you would need to ask the original owner about what he got or didnt get. I think this brings us full circle in this thread. You say your solicitor is struggling to get the certification so if the owner has it then why not provide it?

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120170716#Comment_120170716

That’s easy for an experienced Construction Professional (CP) to ascertain.

The house is 14 years old and any movement in the foundations would be visible in the form of cracks.

Firstly the CP can carry out á visual inspection of all the external and internal walls for Structural Cracking in the walls. Movements in the foundations usually cause Cracking at the weakest area of the walls which are around the window opes.

The ceilings in each room are a 3 mm layer of gypsum plaster which is very brittle and which is contained within a parallelogram of 4 walls. Any structural movement in the foundations would cause some distortion/ movement in the parallelogram of walls which will result in the form of cracking in both directions in these ceilings.

The CP will check all doors and door opes, because any movement in the foundations may cause rotation at the weakest part of a wall which are door opes.

There are many more methods which the CP will check.

Most other parts of the house can be inspected by the CP, in accordance with the Building Regulations which pertain at that time it was built - 2009.

This is why the Purchaser should retain a CP to carry out a Survey of the Building and Site before completing the purchase.

The CP provides PI Insurance which will provide cover for a period of 6 years, for any Certification provided.

mickdw

It is very common that such a cert won't exist from original build.

Certs of compliance with planning and building regs are being completed retrospectively all over the country everyday.

A professional will be able to pretty solidly certify planning compliance from a site visit.

Building reg certification will be limited to visual aspects of the regs and should clearly note that hidden or covered up items were not checked and are not being certified.

Banks are happy with these certs generally.

I would advise that the structural survey becomes super important in this scenario.

Getting this certification retrospectively will involve Engineer having to dig out details of planning file and land registry and then doing the Inspection on site. Personally, when doing these myself, I for the most part put the same detail into the Inspection as if doing structural survey. If suspicious of any defects found, I refuse the work to avoid any future possible liability even though the cert would be heavily qualified to exclude x y z.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120171220#Comment_120171220

It could also involve one of the following:-

1. Chartered Building Surveyor
2. Registered Building Surveyor 
3. Chartered Building Engineer.
4. Chartered Land Surveyor
5. Architect

Gorteen

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120171220#Comment_120171220

Does a retrospective opinion of compliance satisfy banks and/or solicitors for onwards sale?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120171185#Comment_120171185

The PI insurance of the CP doesn't cover a whole lot though, does it? Lots of people in Priory Hall and other firetraps had their surveys done by CPs with PI, but it wasn't much use to the buyers when the properties proved to be grossly deficient.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189070#Comment_120189070

And who is to blame for that???

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189076#Comment_120189076

Probably off-topic for this thread - but let's not have buyers labouring under the misapprehension that they can sue their surveyor (with PI) to cover the costs of fixing up their property if things go wrong.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189093#Comment_120189093

If there is any misapprehension about PI Insurance, why bother hiring anyone who is covered with it.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189121#Comment_120189121

Is this twenty questions?

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120171220#Comment_120171220

It is very common that such a cert won't exist from original build

For a house built in 2009??

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189158#Comment_120189158

No.

The Questions are because of your quote in relation to Priory Hall and other firetraps.

Most Construction Professional will have PI Insurance for al least €650,000.

If any Professional owes a Duty of Care, and is Negligent, then the Client has 6 Years to make a claim against their Insurance Company.

After 6 years the claim is Statute Barred.

I do not know why claims for negligence were not made in relation to Priory Hall or other Apartments, but it is/ was not possible to instigate a Claim after 6 years.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189174#Comment_120189174

Tbe. Building Regulations became operational on 1 June 1992.

All new houses constructed after that date required a Certificate of Opinion on Compliance with the Building Regulations.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189326#Comment_120189326

I'm no expert, but as I understand it, the liability of the surveyor is limited to the fee charged by the surveyor. If the surveyor misses bad construction that costs you hundreds of thousands down the road, that's still a matter for the builder, not the surveyor.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189174#Comment_120189174

Yes even for a house built in 2009, it is still common for one off houses not to have any certification. The system was driven by funding. If you could afford to self fund your one off house, nobody was going to come looking for a cert.

Of course those houses that were self funded were very often built in a manner that didn't comply with planning also so very often a planning application is required to get things sorted out.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189444#Comment_120189444

Are you saying that if a Surveyor carries out a house Survey for a house for a client for a fee of €700, and subsequently it is discovered that there is subsidence in the house that cost €50,000 to remedy, that the Client can only claim €700 from the Surveyor.

Is this what you are implying????

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120189846#Comment_120189846

Yes, that is my understanding.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190061#Comment_120190061

That's absolutely not the case. If it was, there would be no need to hold professional indemnity insurance for €100,000's

If a professional is deemed negligent, and that negligence resulted in a house having to be rebuilt, there must be insurance in place of a high enough degree to cover this

sydthebeat

As a small example, BER assessor's are required to hold min €250,000 PI insurance.

No BER assessor is paid a quarter of a million euro to carry out a BER assessment

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190104#Comment_120190104

So why didn’t all the buyers in Priory Hall just sue their surveyors?

mickdw

Because firstly some would have bought off plans and just took what they got.

People who bought in later may have had a survey however the survey will exclude hidden or inaccessible items. A surveyor isn't a magician to be able to inspect closed up areas. Now if there were defects with visible items, they should be picked up in a survey.

Much of the fire issues would relate to lack of cavity barriers etc which is very much hidden work.

The people who signed off on these projects day one are the people with questions to answer.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190130#Comment_120190130

Did anyone prove their surveyor was negligent?

For priory hall it was the builder who cut corners

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190061#Comment_120190061

Your understanding is incorrect.

The simple law of Negligence is as follows:-

1. Does the Construction Professional (CP) owe a duty of care to the Client?
2. Was the duty of care breached?
3. How much €€ is the Client entitled to in damages.

Legal action Must commence within 6 years of the Negligence.

If a CP carried out Professional Services for a Client, say a home buyers Structural Survey Report of a house, and the Client purchases the house, and subsequently discovers subsidence in the house which will cost €150,000 to rectify. The Client is entitled to recover all of the costs from the CP’s Professional Indemnity Insurance Company.

Litigation must commence within 6 Years.

Solicitors usually request CP’s to furnish the Solicitor with a copy of the CP’s P.I. Insurance, together with a copy of the Survey Report.

CP usually have P I Insurance cover for approximately €650,000.

sydthebeat

this feels like a pertinent time to post this again:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/89316440#Comment_89316440

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190502#Comment_120190502

The builder cut the corners, but the surveyor was there to find the cut corners and protect their clients, which clearly didn't happen. What's the point of a survey if they can't be on the hook for getting the cut corners resolved?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190724#Comment_120190724

Are there any / many cases of surveyors PI paying out to cover the costs of rectification of building issues that the surveyor missed?

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120191051#Comment_120191051

Yes.

I have read many of the cases, which were reported in the various Construction Professionals Institutions magazines.

Many of these claims caused the Costs of Premiums for CP Professional Indemnity Insurance to escalate.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120191047#Comment_120191047

You are referring to incompetent Construction Professionals.

CP must be aware of all necessary inspections during construction stages.

You stated above:- “ What's the point of a survey if they can't be on the hook for getting the cut corners resolved?”

The answer to your query is:- That’s the reason that the CP must have PI Insurance. So the Client issued legal proceedings against the CP and their Insurance Company for the costs to rectify the sub-standard works.

I explained all of this in simple details above.

who what when

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190502#Comment_120190502

As well as the architects / engineers who cut corners with poor or no oversight.

An inspection at any stage of the construction of the external facade would have shown up a complete lack of cavity barriers.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120191334#Comment_120191334

Would you care to share details of any such cases? Surely details must exist in the public domain in some forum or media.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120191047#Comment_120191047

when the "cut corners" are hidden, which was the problem with priory hall, its not within the ability of the surveyor to see within the construction. mickdw has already outlined this above. im talking about certs of compliance being carried out post construction, by visual non intrusive means only.

the "inspecting" professionals who were engaged during the build would certainly be at fault, but its possible there was none engaged (i dont know enough about the case to say this for certain). The building control section would also be partially at fault here for not enforcing the building regulations, but they did not provide oversight to 100% of projects back then, and obviously priory hall fell between the cracks.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120191594#Comment_120191594

Sure, and I get all that.

I suppose my original comment was to question the value of the surveyor's PI to the average client, when the survey will be couched in so many ifs and buts and conditions around not being able to open up. The client is never going to be able to take an action against the surveyor's PI to pay for any substantial defects that the surveyor missed, as far as I know.

I'm a bit distant from this area now, so I could be out of date. I'm very open to being corrected by those who are closer to the ground than me.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120192360#Comment_120192360

The client is never going to be able to take an action against the surveyor's PI to pay for any substantial defects that the surveyor missed, as far as I know.

the surveyor cannot "miss" aspects that are hidden to them. They can only carry out a "non obtrusive visual inspection", so if there are cavity barriers missing in a cavity, they cannot see that. If the foundations are missing reinforcement, they cannot see that. Hell even if the cavity is missing insulation they cannot see that.

you are essentially asking if these "non intrusive visual inspection" certificates are worth the paper they are written on, and to be honest as a practitioner in the business, no they're pretty much not. They will be qualified to the nth degree

now, if the surveyor misses something very obvious and serious like, say, bedroom windows not complying with fire escape requirements, then absolutely yes their PI insurance will be in trouble. But the main point is they cannot be held liable for things that they cannot see and are hidden from them.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120190724#Comment_120190724

"If a CP carried out Professional Services for a Client, say a home buyers Structural Survey Report of a house, and the Client purchases the house, and subsequently discovers subsidence in the house which will cost €150,000 to rectify. The Client is entitled to recover all of the costs from the CP’s Professional Indemnity Insurance Company."

Even if there was no visible signs of subsidence when the survey was done?

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120193073#Comment_120193073

You posed the following question above:-

“Even if there was no visible signs of subsidence when the survey was done?”

If the Surveyor cannot see or diagnose any signs of Substance in a house which is subsidising, then they should not be carrying out Building Surveys, and will be Negligent.

it is easy for an experienced Construction Professional (CP) to ascertain if a property is subsiding. Any movement in the foundations would be visible in the form of cracks. 

There are many causes of cracks in buildings, some are very serious and some are irrelevant. It is necessary for a CP to make a diagnosis the cause of the cracks.

Firstly the CP must carry out a visual inspection of all the external and internal walls for Structural Cracking in the walls. Movements in the foundations usually cause Cracking at the weakest area of the walls which are around the door /window opes. 

The ceilings in each room consist of a 3 mm layer of gypsum plaster on plasterboard, which is very brittle and which is contained within a parallelogram of 4 walls. Any structural movement in the foundations would cause some distortion/ movement in the parallelogram of the 4 walls which will result in the form of cracking in both directions in these ceilings, usually along the joints of the plasterboards of the ceiling.

The CP will check all internal doors and frames and door opes, because any movement in the foundations may cause rotation at the weakest part of a walls which are door opes, which will result in marks on the doors or frames or saddles.

There are many more methods which the CP will check for subsidence.

A Surveyor must check the drains for leaks by plugging the downstream outlets of all the drains, and filling up the drainage system to ground level with water. Photograph and mark the height level of the water in the highest manholes upstream. And check the level of the water in the manholes at intervals for at least 1 hour. If the drains are leaking - depending on the rate of the leak, the Surveyor will Specify in the Survey Report that a CCTV and a Hydrostatic test of all the drainage systems must be carried out, and that the test results MUST be given to the Surveyor for analysis before deciding to purchase the property.

Most subsidence of foundation are caused by leaking Drains adjacent to the foundations.

This is why the Purchaser should retain a CP to carry out a Survey of the Building and Site before completing the purchase.

All Architects and Civil Engineers and Building Surveyors carrying out Surveys of buildings would be experts in all of the above, and may have covered it in their Degree in the Building Surveying modules.

chooseusername

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120194007#Comment_120194007

"If the Surveyor cannot see or diagnose any signs of Substance in a house which is subsidising, then they should not be carrying out Building Surveys, and will be Negligent."

You misunderstood the question, there were no visible signs for the surveyor to see when the survey was done. They may not have appeared for a year or so subsequent to buying the house.

C. Eastwood

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120194183#Comment_120194183

In Reality, then the house should be covered by the 10 year Structural Guarantee and the CP who prepared the Certificate of Compliance with the Build Regulations and Planning for the new house.

mickdw

If the signs were not there at time of survey, it would be unusual for something to occur without reason within a year's time frame assuming the property was there for 5 10 15 ..... 50 years previous.

If such a scenario were to arise, it might be easily shown that some external event resulted in the sudden subsidence such as extreme water leak adjacent or something like that.

I always keep in the back of my mind when photographing a property that I'm showing cracks that are there as well as showing typical trouble areas to be in good condition so that the report itself should provide some backup to show that the defects were not there at date of survey.