rsa supporting e-scooters

magicbastarder

i welcome the day when every near miss in the UK is reported on by the daily mail.

ExoPolitic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120733989#Comment_120733989

What they say and what they do are two completely different things.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120735542#Comment_120735542

Ok fine, we'll have to agree to completely disagree. I don't think there's any meaningful equivalence between an eScooter and a car, and I don't see why the need to tackle motor vehicle road safety should have any relevance to the need to put in place safety standards for newer forms of transport (which we should be encouraging) on our roads. It's not a case of one or the other.

I'll leave it there.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120745226#Comment_120745226

Undoubtedly. But there are surely far more near-accidents involving cars and pedestrians happening all over the country too. The media just know that mentioning eScooters in a headline will guarantee clicks.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120750313#Comment_120750313

Pedestrians don't come towards other road users at anything from 20 to 60+ kph whereas eScotter riders do..

As someone made a snarky comment about the DM, well if you have a look around YouTube there's plenty of Dashcam videos showing near misses or worse with eScooter riders...

Henry Ford III

So if an e scooter rider hits and injures a pedestrian who is liable for the damages?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752541#Comment_120752541

You've been here long enough to know the answer to that so you may as well spit out the actual point you are hoping to make!

Macy0161

Since we don't have presumed liability regarding a hierarchy of responsibility, it'll go to court for decision, same as every other claim? Given the number of times someone walking has stepped in front of me on a bike on the road, I don't make assumptions on fault tbh.

LeeroyJ.

So many commenters in here are just saying "I don't want to share the road, it belongs to me and my car" in a thousand different words. I'd appreciate if the mods could do some moderating and focus on the legislation instead of entitled drivers voicing their displeasure with anything that might make them slow down.

magicbastarder

mod note; thank you for your input but this is a discussion forum and people are discussing the topic at hand and have remained reasonably polite about it. if you are seeing opinions you don't like, it doesn't mean those posts are actionable.

Paddigol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120750524#Comment_120750524

I don't get the point you're making? What relevance does the fact that pedestrians don't move at 20 - 60 kmph have to the fact that every day there are countless incidents of close calls between them and cars? Just look at the number of pedestrian fatalities this year alone. I was simply pointing out the fact that there are probably thousands of 'close calls' on our roads every day. None of which make the news. Unless, it seems, it involves an eScooter. The implication in the article, of course, being that this is somehow endemic to eScooters above all other forms of transport on the road, when it's not.

So much scaremongering and 'reds under the bed' style rabble rousing going on around the use of eScooters.

Tenzor07

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753580#Comment_120753580

Because it's the topic at hand, and they make the news cos it's relatively new, there's increasing numbers of illegal powered scooters on the roads... even myself have come across kids flying around corners on them..

Macy0161

Sorry, but I'd disagree that's specifically scooter related tbh. Not to re-open the "are they healthy" argument, it wouldn't been said about children and teens flying around on push bikes.

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752562#Comment_120752562

If I knew I wouldn't ask. Genuinely.

p.s. That 80 something year old lady who was hit by an e scooter has sadly died it seems. This is a serious issue.

magicbastarder

i think the short answer (without meaning to sound trivial about it; because this response is so often repeated) is simply policing the use of the things. if you're caught using one on the footpath, you should get a fine. and gardai currently have the power to seize a bicycle if they're not satisfied that a cyclist they've stopped is not giving correct ID; i suspect it'd be the same for e-scooters?

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752541#Comment_120752541

Currently the unlicenced uninsured person on the escooter, which can have serious consequences as uninsured driving can result in 5 points and a fine.

When they are legal the person on the escooter as they hit the pedestrian.

If a pedestrian hits a escooter rider they would be liable.

inigo

It seems the Bill has been signed by Michael D. today and is now law.

https://president.ie/en/media-library/news-releases/president-higgins-signs-the-road-traffic-and-roads-bill-2021

Does that mean we will be riding our e-scooters legally from now on (provided they "comply with the requirements")??

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120756363#Comment_120756363

Makes no sense.

These yokes are uninsurable. How can you apply 5 points to a license that doesn't exist?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120756380#Comment_120756380

So will members of AGS be made aware of the law and start actually policing it? I have my doubts!

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120756844#Comment_120756844

there were two cases in front of a judge in balbriggan on the same day a few months ago - a chap on an escooter, stopped by gardai for not having insurance, and a chap driving a merc on the M1 at 150km/h, who was i think twice the legal limit and had an open can of beer in the car.

the guy on the escooter got more penalty points; four vs three for the drunk driver (but a lower financial penalty; €350 vs €750)

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120756844#Comment_120756844

They are uninsurable because they are currently illegal motor vehicles.

The same way the apply 5 points to people who don't have an Irish licence. They create a virtual licence and the points are added to that, as the points aren't applied to a licence they remain on record till the person gets a licence.

Stark

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120757740#Comment_120757740

I thought the position at the moment was they were legal as long as they were taxed and insured like a moped?

magicbastarder

In theory. Try getting one taxed or insured though!

LeeroyJ.

https://www.fm104.ie/news/fm104-news/legislation-on-e-scooters-signed-into-law/

Henry Ford III

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120769090#Comment_120769090

Nobody else reporting that. Finding it impossible to confirm too.

magicbastarder

Some analysis here

https://irishcycle.com/2023/06/26/electric-bikes-with-motors-which-exceed-25km-h-or-250w-must-be-registered-as-e-mopeds-in-2024/

Squidgy Black

..

Paddigol

It seems there's no middle ground. Cyclists (eScooters users don't seem to be bothered by negative press) won't acknowledge issues around use of eScooters and eBikes until something is done about about the dangers posed by cars. And non-cyclists are only interested in engaging with salacious and hysterical reports about use of eScooters. Its the classic polarisation impediment to discussion.

As someone who doesn't own one or intend to buy one, I'm not interested enough to start a separate thread so I'll formally retire from this one 😂

Macy0161

I wouldn't really classify it as that. Most people couldn't give a toss either way, but of those that comment it seems to be a cohort of people who drive wanting extra laws and regulations, as against those that just say enforce the law before introducing extra regulations.

CramCycle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120772595#Comment_120772595

It's not so much, do nothing because cars are bad but more that, in the grand scheme of things, do something but don't make it a priority because the number of deaths and injuries that are known about appear small so far, so at least stop the hysteria in the papers and the demonising of a group who are, in the majority, just getting in and out to work reasonably practically and safely. I have seen a nasty accident on an escooter where a young one hopped up on their boyfriends scooter to try, and immediately faceplanted and took a chunk out of their face. I have seen a fixed gear rider lose the top of their finger, I have more scars on me than I care to admit from bike riding and know several people dead or injured from car accidents. If I went by anecdotal evidence, no one would be allowed ride a bike, scooter or drive a car ever again. Testing clearly doesn't work as proven by the car stats. The truth is though, that is just hysteria and in the broader scheme of things, when rules are followed for cars, they are typically safe, so therefore that can be fixed with enforcement. For cyclists and scooters, so far, there are rules for one and a concept of what the rules will be for the other, threat of enforcement is more important than diverting resources to absolute enforcement. As a Garda I used to live with once said, I don't pull over cyclists running reds because they run reds, I pull them over because if they run a red in front of me while in uniform, then they are not paying enough attention to do it safely. He also fully admitted that it rarely happened in front of him, which he felt validated his view on it.

zell12

Thanks Peter, call again

Cabaal

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802404#Comment_120802404

Wait until he learns about what motorists do!

He'll faint

magicbastarder

'two years on, there is still no legislation'?

i am reminded of the saying 'it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think you're a fool'.

THE_SHEEP

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802407#Comment_120802407

Yeah, driving on footpaths , mowing down / killing 80 year olds , no insurance / tax , possible under the influence alcohol / drugs etc etc !!

Poor Peter will have a canary !!

loyatemu

how far are we from seeing hire scooters on the streets of Dublin, AIUI Bolt and others are just waiting for the green light to start deploying them.

AlmightyCushion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120802407#Comment_120802407

I had the same thought reading it. Especially the parking haphazardly on footpaths. I live in the city centre, he should take a walk around here some time, you can't move for all the illegally parked cars.

Flinty997

It can be hard to visually distinguish between speed-pedelecs which will be viewed as e-mopeds, and normal pedelecs which are viewed as bicycles.

Not pedaling and/or travelling at more than 30kph seems an obvious way to spot them.

JMcL

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120803703#Comment_120803703

Users could argue they were coasting, and given a flat/downhill enough gradient, most bikes would get above 30km/h

That said, I couldn't imagine this applying to the bike shaped objects assembled from left over girders with a motor bolted on that are everywhere. It would still take a Guard that gives a toss to enforce it though

Flinty997

It's quite hardb for a regular person to get bike over 30kph on the flat. Never mind a heavy ebike.

cletus

As it stands, motorists stopped for speeding will challenge the accuracy of the equipment used to clock their speed.

I don't see how the speed will be policed on ebikes or escooters. Will gardaí be using speed guns for this? Just saying "it looked like the bike was going faster that 30kph" is not going to stand up in court.

jbrod77

the lack of high vis & helmets & lights is baffling.

Most cyclists today take descent safety measures but scooter users whizz about in stealth mode!

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804669#Comment_120804669

Here you go...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2057136508/hi-vis-discussion-thread-read-post-1

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804669#Comment_120804669

They were illegal. Is stealth mode that surprising?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804657#Comment_120804657

In Richmond park London they started using speed guns on cyclists. Didn't work out but it's technically possible.

Can't they use their speedometer in a car to make an estimate?

Macy0161

I can't see why they wouldn't be able to use a speed gun, same as any other vehicle. I don't know where all these scooter and ebike issues really are though - I work and commute into the city centre (by bike), but sometimes wonder how I survive the scooter and ebike Armageddon...

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804733#Comment_120804733

I think it would be very easily challenged in court. Cars don't give an accurate speed on the speedometer, and it changes depending on the make.

I've heard of cases where speeding fines were thrown out when the calibration of the speed gun was questioned, so I can't see "it looked like..." being accepted as evidence.

The other issue, specific to ebikes, is that the speed limit only applies to motor assist. How do the gardaí ascertain, in the moment, whether the speed is self propelled, or motor assisted

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804764#Comment_120804764

My take on it...

People are lazy enough not to cycle if they don't have to. At lower speeds well they aren't speeding. At higher speeds it's unlikely assisted.

At higher speeds eBike or Scooter you need the paperwork.

If someone was motivated enough to care, they'd learn the things to spot. Up to now all eScooters were illegal, easy to spot, but they did little to enforce it. I'm not sure we'll see any greater motivation to enforce the rules.

cletus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804806#Comment_120804806

I think that's it. My take is that when the legislation comes in, the gardaí will then just ignore all of it, on the basis that they're no longer "illegal". After that, it becomes a stupid test

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804820#Comment_120804820

I suspect you'll be right.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120804764#Comment_120804764

Unless it was changed (I dont think so), the legislation assumes speed guns are calibrated correctly and is not questionable.

cletus

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/speed-gun-challenged-in-court-1.1170121

This was 2004, and it related to the storage of data, rather than calibration, so I may have misremembered it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/successful-challenge-to-use-of-speed-guns-1.406480

And again in 2005. It looks like those guns were subsequently replaced.

The crux of my argument, though, is that people will look for any loophole to avoid punishment, and it seems that the new legislation has plenty of them