Home heating automation

What's the nicest way to replace the below Immersion setup?

The manual timer is broken (multiple pins broken etc).

An electrician said he can't install certain things as the Immersion is analog?

For a mate.

Yeah, I suggested smart but they're concerned.

I didn't see anything easy in terms of smart controls other than something like the Climote but that is pricey.

At first glance, your system is a classic pumped zoned system, 2 CH and one HW. Each zone is independently pumped, at the behest of a combination of closed thermostats and a timed schedule. In order that all three zones can call the boiler when the above conditions are satisfied, the boiler control would normally require a relay box to combine the live stat requests into one, so any of CH1 CH2 or HW go live, it will request the boiler, but the same three sources will turn on their respective pumps only. In an S plan zoned system where valves are used instead of pumps, the valves contain relays whose live outputs are combined to call the boiler. The systemlex provides this function fora pumped system, and normally its three outputs would be triggered by a three channel input timer, and these three timed lives would in turn be interrupted by the three zone thermostats, two on the walls, one in the HW cylinder.

The reason your system was pumped rather than valved is to do with the fact that you have two heat sources, oil and stove. The function of the grey Sytemlink tank is to blend both sources in a manner known as neutralising, and from this pressure neutral source, pumps supply the individual destinations, (I'm assuming the right side of the neutraliser has a flow and return from the oil boiler). A key reason for pumps would be that they are open circuit even when unpowered, which give the option to have some circuits fed by gravity from their zone, such as the HW, or an upstairs radiators. This is required because one of the sources is a stove, and in the event of a power failure there needs to be a gravity path to sink the heat from the stove boiler jacket. It would also be normal in a two source system to to have a dual coil HW cylinder, so that the stove could gravity feed it directly prior to blending, with the other coil operating to heat HW when the oil boiler is activated and the HW zone is called.

It can get a bit more complicated. The stove pump is generally only activated when the stove flow is sufficiently hot that it is not being fully absorbed by the gravity HW coil ( if fitted), and once activated, at least one CH zone must run, regardless of the wall stat settings and the need for heat in the CH zones, as the stove can't be called on and off like the oil boiler. There is also an optional override relay in the lex box which will mute the combined live call to the oil boiler for the duration of the pumped heated supply from the stove, handing over CH heating to the stove while it maintains an output above a threshold of in the region of 65°.

Your system seems to have some issues, in that a timer request does not call the boiler when the HW stat is closed and calling for heat while both CH stats open. Added to this is the presence of a zone valve on the cylinder, which seems to suggest that HW heating is closed off in certain circumstances, such as when the cylinder is sufficiently hot but the CH is running. This in turn suggests that the HW cylinder thermostat is not being used to call the boiler for HW heating, rather to close it off when heating as a result of a CH1 call.

All the above preamble is necessary to illustrate that your system does not seem to be wired in a manner that has three straight live inputs, two CH and one HW. If this were so then it would the easiest thing to wire in the Drayton receiver three channel live outputs into the lex box inputs. If you want independent three zone heating, this should be sorted first, and it will require a bit of tracing to see what the exact logic of your system wiring is, and what is the manner of the stove's interconnectivity to the lex wiring centre. (I notice a seperate small passive wiring box connecting the cylinder thermostat, the cylinder motorised valve and in all probability some connections back to the lex).

If the above is frying your head, and if you are content to not have HW heated by the oil unless a CH zone is also on, (in the summer for example, you probably just use the immersion?), then I would suggest that you just change out the two wired Robus for two wired Tado stats, and have them take charge of all CH timing and temperature control. The old timer can just be switched to always on, assuming that no boiler activity takes place if both room stats are off. If you would really like to get your three pumped zones working independently, then a bit of investigation and rewiring would be required to integrate the Drayton 3 channel receiver and wireless wall stats.

I'm baffled how such an involved and well plumbed installation, which included manifold fed radiators, the expense of the neutraliser tank and the lex wiring centre, fell short with just a crude single channel mechanical timer when an EPG three channel electronic timer would have been a trivial extra cost, and would have made your upgrade a DIY job

Those manifolds are begging to be swapped out for ones you can put an actuator on too.....

Disclaimer: it's what I have so a comfort zone. Heatmiser do wireless (or wired) thermostats and matchimg wiring centres that work with their neohub (which links to home assistant no issues).

Would potentially give you the same end result but with the option to down the road split your zones at those manifolds and heat a room or two as opposed to a whole floor.

I think the first port of call is to understand (and map / draw) the existing wiring logic so that you know what calls what and how.

That will then guide you on how to rewire and change for more modern controls or further splitting of zones (if desired). In particular obviously calling for hot water in isolation is important (even if you go with a valve handle you turn in March and turn back in September, my old water only setup....).

Thank you both again! We definitely have wiring issues in terms of the stove. The last time we usedi it the pump didn't turn on and we were worried the whole system would be under too much pressure 😬. It certainly is food for thoughts and we will start investigating all that.

Hi and apologies I bet this will have been asked a bunch of times.

Firebird Condenser Boiler which I'm happy with out in the shed.

In the utility room we have a simple heating on/off or timed pins. There is 2 zones controlled via valves. No thermostat.

Zone1: Downstairs heating

Zone2: Downstairs / Upstairs / Hot Water.

I'm looking to get a Hive or Nest type set up with thermostat app etc. Im not huge into technology so something mainstream thats proven be normally what I go for. Were due a newborn baboig and want to be able to control Downstairs and upstairs temperatures. If the Stát is move able don't mind bringing it upstairs at night.

Also in next couple of months will probly try and split out to 3 zones (upstairs, Downstairs, HW all Independant). Would this require a seperate model type to what I need for my current set up.

Thanks

@deezell thanks for reply.

It's a Flash Programmer 31032 that we use to operate the heating.

It's a single 2 port motorised valve connected to the flash programmer. It is located downstairs in the house on the pipework that goes upstairs.

Your correct in your assumptions - I can't operate the (upstairs ch and hw) independant of downstairs ch. We have an immersion on the hot tank.

Yeah there is a 2 position switch

Position 1: ch downstairs only

Position 2: ch downstairs / ch upstairs / hw

There is a boiler constant on / timer or off switch then aswell.

So this switch on the Flash is wired with one channel to the boiler and pump, which heats the downstairs by default, and the other position opens the valve for HW and upstairs CH. These timers were designed to operate differently than your installation, with the upper postion, HW only, firing the boiler without the circulation pump on, so only HW will heat by gravity connection from the boiler pipes. Position 2 turns on the pump, heating all CH and the HW. Because your boiler is in a shed, gravity to the HW cylinder is not possible if the flow and return pipes drop into the floor the enter the utility room. Is this the image of your timer.

Right Hand Switch / Top Position: CH downstairs only

Right Hand Switch / Bottom Position: CH upstairs / CH downstairs / HW

Left Hand Switch / Middle : Boiler Off

Left Hand Switch / Top : Boiler comes on as per timer in scenario dictated by R. Switch

Left Hand Switch / Bottom : Boiler comes on Constantly in scenario dictated by R. Switch

I wouldn't have thought it was a too out of the ordinary set up to be honest. Glad I asked the question

The clue is in the ie in the url. This is the Irish site, vat is 23% and delivery is inclusive. Goods are dispatched from the EU afaik, but frustratingly, they have the currency fixed in £. I queried this November 2021, complaining that we were European, and initially got this reply;

The Ireland section of the tado° shop is merged with the UK section. The prices are shown in £ as intended, it is not an error. Reason for the sections to be merged is because heating systems in Ireland and UK are similar. Same tado° devices are sold in both countries, so it was a technical and logistic decision to keep the shop together. Any purchases from Ireland will be normally charged in Euro equivalent of the displayed price.

Nick

I rejected this as the UK was no longer in the EU, it was insulting to price our branch of the site in £, and we were at the mercy of currency exchange. At the time, they had also stopped supplying into the UK due to the farce of Brexit. later I got a more positive reply, but still nothing was done.

I apologize for this terrible mistake. We have no intention to imply Ireland is in UK. That would be utter disrespect of glorious Ireland. We will take care of the matter urgently.

Nick

There was a touch of Borat about this reply, so I left it at that.

Try the discount code 'Tado12' , it might work on the refurbs, though it was emailed for use on add on devices, but, you never know.

Thanks very much for your input. I think I need to do some digging and get the plumbing sorted before automating

Is that 2:00 = two minutes? Are the motion sensors IR or some type of doppler movement sensor. Regardless, you can test this out by substituting an alert or notification for heating On or Off actions, which will give you an indication of the potential boiler call pattern. I'd expect it to only fire for a steady period where there was constant movement, or constant presence in front of an IR sensor. I'm curious about the 2 minute line. Is it cumulative? Once its high for two minutes, does it stay on until its instaneously low,or does it just require any transient high in a 2 minute window?.

A long time ago, I installed IR motion sensors to lecture theatre AV equipment, in about 30-40 rooms. Once turned on, a countdown timer of 20 minutes commenced, and the facilities would turn off if the countdown was not reset by the presence of someone on the lecture podium. The idea was to prevent equipment, particularly data projectors, being left on for long periods, often entire weekends, consuming expensive 500 hr life mercury discharge lamps at €400 each. The 20 minutes seemed like a generous window, but it failed when lecturers delivered their talks from the back of the room, using their own wireless mouse to change slides. It also failed when some would stick on a 40 minute video and clear off to the shops at Xmas! I changed it to an hour. You may need to code your conditional statements to reflect the actual operation of the sensors, their range, sensitivity etc, and have a minimum on period while temperature is below target. If someone falls asleep in a chair in a corner, there may be no trigger for their presence.