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To Mask or not to two - Mask Megathread cont.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,677 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    Do you disagree with the experts who published the multiple studies I referenced?

    So far you have referenced a few cranks and an out of context quote from the beginning of the pandemic, one would not call that "research" in any way shape or form (but I can understand your clinging onto it).



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    I see. So nothing. Not a bit surprised.

    Thanks



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I clearly do disagree. Just like you disagree with the experts of all the studies against masks.

    No large scale study has been done that replicates a real life mask mandate. People wearing the same cloth mask etc for a week and only on public transport or while running to the toilet in a restaurant.


    Why won't you answer the question? If masks are so effective, why are governments around the world not desperately trying to keep them?



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What's the ask here? Do you want me to teach you where to find data and how to analyse it?

    It takes a lot of time. It's not something you can explain over a post on boards.


    You'd be better off doing a course.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    According to your logic masks on their own are not effective. It is only when additional conditions A, B, C etc. are met that wearing masks makes sense, which would indicate that masks on their own don’t work. That may as well be one of the conclusion one could draw from the study.

    The study mentioned provides a real life test bet for testing efficacy of masks. The only differentiator between the 5 and 6 year olds are the masks, no other additional conditions were imposed on either of the group. The kids in both groups have not changed their behaviour, which may be the best way to conduct such an experiment.

    Your guess is very wrong btw.

    Post edited by walus on

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



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  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I work with data in my career... Are you looking for me to teach you?

    You're not making a shred of sense here. Whats your answer to my post above?


    What do you disagree with?

    This is a topic about masks... Do you have an opinion on them?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    No, I'm merely saying that a study on what 5 and 6 year old put around their faces over an extended period of time (weeks or months) is pretty stupid study to waste money on carrying out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    To say that one of the scientist that participated in the interview is a vet is a blatant misrepresentation.

    She holds masters in fine arts and phd in veterinary medicine. An expert in animals to human disease transmission (I believe that Covid falls into that category). Her broad background and research skills landed her a job with Kaiser Permanente for Health Research. Contributor to a number of scientific journals and magazines. All in all very experienced in scientific research, someone who knows how to work and interpret the data.

    Feel free to share your credentials.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,196 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    She's a vet. A masters in fine arts! Ffs. She is not a medical doctor. Presenting her as a medical doctor IS a blatant misrepresentation.

    So she's an expert on animals to human disease transmission. How does that qualify her to assess human to human transmission? She is not a direct subject matter expert on the topic.

    You know who are? The experts at the CDC etc.

    Therefore I don't need to share my credentials, but I refer you the credentials of those who recommended mask mandates - every major health authority in the world.

    So if you want to play the credentials\expertise game and you are swayed by such things, you must accept you are in the wrong.

    Check mate.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 30,196 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It is impossible to run such a random controlled trial with mask mandates in an open society. How is the 'control' to be established? It simply cannot be.

    You are proceeding from an entirely false premise. Such RCTs are not an important \ necessary measure in rollout of public health measures.

    We didn't run such RCTs for example to justify banning passive smoking in pubs.

    We can look to large scale studies such as mask use in Bangladeshi villages which showed a reduction in cases when mask wearing increased, but a highly controlled study is not possible.

    Similarly the Danish study showed a reduction in cases among mask wearers versus non mask wearers - not examining mask mandates, but voluntary wearers, but due to the low level of virus in circulation at the time significant number differences were not detected.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    To verify your assessment of who she truly is as a professional, the knowledge of your own credentials is necessary. Without that statements like that are irrelevant and of no value.

    I take it you don’t have any credentials to support your arguments.

    It seems to me that a very reputable organisation such as Kaiser Permanente trusted her to do research work on public health. The New York t8mes and The Atlantic also felt she is well positioned to share her thoughts there. For most that would be enough to take her opinion into consideration.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,196 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Yet somehow you have credentials enough to make that assessment? Nope, evidently you do not.

    Well done, you've hoist yourself on your own petard and proven your own comments are irrelevent and of no value!

    She was presented as a doctor, and in the context of the video, people would assume that to mean her doctorate is in human medical science. She is not a medical doctor. To present her as such is misrepresentation.

    And if we're talking about the value of her opinion - I would also add the video content itself is an exercise is misrepresentation if not downright dishonesty. So doubling down there.

    And in the credentials argument, if we're going for an argument from credentials, you keep running away from the salient point - the overwhelming weight of credentials in the authorities who recommended mask mandates. The actual experts in public health who have to make these decisions.

    Once you brought credentials into it, you lost the argument.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    So essentially all mask studies are pretty worthless if you can't simulate what happens in a real life scenario.

    Masks don't have any benefit in the real world. People are wearing cloth masks and the same one for a week. Constantly pulling it on and off as required while they eat, drink etc.

    They're essentially worthless in real life, which is why the global data doesn't show any meaningful impact.



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,196 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Who said all mask studies are pretty worthless? That's a strawman without foundation. I said you are looking for a standard of study which is not feasible in the real world. A standard of study which is not necessary or required for public health measures.

    It is that the mask studies are all limited in some way or another, need to be assessed as a whole in light of lab studies and case studies by the public health authorities whose role it is to assess such evidence.

    You keep trotting out the same discredited arguments about masks when it is clear you are approaching them as direct PPE not barriers. And mask mandates were about masks as barriers.

    You then engage in a gish galop throwing in random asides about eating or drinking... never really making it clear what you are talking about so it can't be refuted. You don't seem to understand how covid spreads or this distinction between masks as PPE versus barriers.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,383 ✭✭✭corcaigh07


    Can someone share the mountains of actual evidence that masks prevent and/or reduce COVID-19? Proof only please, not suggestions or indications that masks work.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    So how exactly is the face coverings of these 5 and 6 year old monitored? Are they wearing them at home? Are their parents wearing them, siblings? Was nose picking monitored? Did they check for how much food they threw at each other? Etc...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    You haven't answered simple question I asked. Instead you went your usual route, plenty of noise and no info. What a surprise, you've done it before and I believe you'll keep doing it. Dunno why, but that's your own problem I guess.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    You are free to read, interpret and conclude on that paper findings yourself. Reach out to the authors if you wish, yo7 would be surprised how responsive some of them can be.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,496 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭xhomelezz


    They're essentially worthless in real life, which is why the global data doesn't show any meaningful impact.

    Again posting this. Whenever you'll feel like to break down those global data in some meaningful figures for the readers here. That would be great..



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,651 ✭✭✭walus


    Interestingly, when needed the usual poster is nowhere near this post to question that Jason Abaluck, the author of the mentioned study in Bangladesh, is an economist. Since he is an economist and according to the logic and approval criteria presented here by him at nausea, the entire study is to be dismissed.

    Same goes for Pratyush Kollepara, the author of the second study, who is just graduated mathematician, with very few publications in modelling complex systems. Applying same criteria, we have to dismiss this study as well.

    In addition to that the researchers in Bangladesh were active on the ground promoting the use of masks as well as physical distancing and social distancing among the population at large One could argue that the study did not measure the effectiveness of masks, instead it measured the effectiveness of masks in conjunction with social distancing. Potentially two factors were at play - masks and change in human behaviour.

    ”Where’s the revolution? Come on, people you’re letting me down!”



  • Registered Users Posts: 30,196 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The study in Bangladesh has multiple experts involved.

    To present it as such 'the author' implies it was solely authored by the mentioned economist.

    I would further add the economist is not making any medical claims from authority but was involved in the operation of the study. Big distinction.

    In an attempt at deception... You deliberately left out who else was involved:

    We now have evidence from a randomized, controlled trial that mask promotion increases the use of face coverings and prevents the spread of COVID-19,” said Stephen Luby, MD, professor of medicine at Stanford. “This is the gold standard for evaluating public health interventions. Importantly, this approach was designed be scalable in lower- and middle-income countries struggling to get or distribute vaccines against the virus.”

    Luby shares senior authorship with Ahmed Mushfiq Mobarak, PhD, professor of economics at Yale, of a paper describing the research. The lead authors are Ashley Styczynski, MD, MPH, an infectious disease fellow at Stanford; Jason Abaluck, PhD, professor of economics at Yale; and Laura Kwong, PhD, a former postdoctoral scholar at Stanford who is now an assistant professor of environmental health sciences at the University of California-Berkeley.

    Proof positive of the falsehood your position.

    Once you brought credentials into it you were always going to lose this argument.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,489 ✭✭✭fun loving criminal


    They looked at countries with mask mandates and then cases in the country and drew their own conclusions that masks don't work.


    Yet they refuse to acknowledge that people don't wear them properly but to them that can't be the reason that masks don't work. Just, they do not work because they don't like to wear a mask and we all must follow their science.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You don't seem to understand data and prefer to insult me instead.

    That's ok.

    I have literally explained to you that there is NOTHING to see in the global data. That is literally the whole point.

    There is NO meaningful figures for the readers to see because masks did nothing.

    It is up to YOU to prove that masks did something meaningful, because the data doesn't show it.


    Are you understanding now?

    PLEASE show me the data that mandates reduced cases or deaths?

    If you can't , stop insulting me or at the very least, make some coherent point on this thread.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If people don't wear masks properly, that is more evidence that mandates don't work.



  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You are basically admitting that the studies are all rubbish. Not relevant to real life.

    It must kill you to admit that but you are correct.

    The studies carried out so far dont actually represent what real life mask mandates cover.

    They are studies in controlled environments. Not the average Joe wearing a cloth mask for a week straight while pulling it down to eat and drink.

    You must agree it's a misrepresentation?



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,496 ✭✭✭✭Brendan Bendar


    What has the correlation between not wearing masks properly and mandates not working?



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  • Posts: 4,727 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As I said, the studies are a misrepresentation.

    Do they factor in people wearing cloth masks? Do they factor in people wearing face visors? Do they factor in wearing the same mask that's stuffed in your pocket for a week?

    Do they factor in constantly removing the mask to eat and drink etc?


    Odyssey himself admitted they don't. So they're not capturing real life conditions.



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