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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Can you stop bringing up Drumcondra and point about 40% higher population density. Drumcondra station is being upgraded to full Dart service.

    Drumcondra - includes lower and upper Drumcondra:

    Glasnevin - includes DCU, National Botanic Gardens, includes only the NW quadrant around the Glasnevin station.




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 4,969 Mod ✭✭✭✭GoldFour4


    i agree with the glasnevin station but your point above is not really relevant. Some of those Glasnevin areas are over an hour walk to the station.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    This is exactly my point. Sorry I'm not clear in my post.

    @strassenwolf keeps bringing up "higher density in Drumcondra versus Glasnevin". But this is extremely vague and not backed up by any scrutiny.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Even if you compare it to Phibs or Cabra, I think Drumcondra still is a higher density neigbourhood that isn't as well served by PT.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    The figures are not vague. They are backed up by the census figures of those areas for many years, the most recent (that I've seen) being those from 2016, though there are probably figures available for the 2021 census.

    I have not yet seen the 2021 figures, but I surely will soon.

    I'd be surprised if there's much of a change.

    I'd guess we'd get much the same figures from the 2021 census: A 40% higher population density in Drumcondra than exists around Glasnevin Junction is, broadly, what I'd be reckoning.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    For your information, brianc89:

    The local population, and the population density, are much higher at Drumcondra than around Glasnevin Junction.

    To illustrate this, if you take the 7 electoral districts broadly around Glasnevin Junction (Botanic A, B and C, Cabra East A and B, Cabra West B and Inns Quay A), these have a total area of 4.759 sq.km, the total population is 24,760 and the density is 5,203 people per sq.km. (2016 census figures).

    Against this, if you take the 8 electoral districts broadly around a possible metro station at Drumcondra (Drumcondra South A, B and C, Botanic B and C, Inns Quay A, Ballybough B and Mountjoy B), these have a total area of 3.814 sq.km. (i.e. smaller than the above), a total population of 27,561 (i.e. higher than above) and a density of 7,226 per sq.km (i.e. around 40% higher than at Glasnevin Junction).

    I hope that helps, Brian, but I am conscious that I have not seen the most recent census figures.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,362 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Groundhog day again lads.

    No Drumcondra vs Glasnevin chat. The debate is settled. MetroLink is routing via Glasnevin. Whether Frank McDonald has a bee in his bonnet about it or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The metrolink route is via a new station at Crossguns Bridge serving the Phibsboro and Glasnevin areas of D7 and D11 and providing interchange to both DART lines and potentially an intercity service in one station.

    The railway order is with the board and will not change at this stage so its not up for discussion.

    If metrolnk is cancelled and in 2 decades we have another version of the project it may be a discussion worth having at that point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Botanic A has a population density of 2,500/sqkm. This is pulling the average way down, but you're excluding the fact that this includes Glasnevin Cemetery and the National Botanic Gardens. Both of these are major tourist attractions - 700k people visited the National Botanic Gardens in 2019.

    Mountjoy B (20k per sqkm) is pulling the Drumcondra average way up, however this catchment is an equal distance to OCS Metro, so they're not losing out by moving the Metro station to Glasnevin Jct.

    Inns Quay A (12.5k per sqkm) benefits equally from either location. And Ballybough B (11.5k per sqkm) still benefits from a full Dart service at Drumcondra.

    https://www.citypopulation.de/en/ireland/dublin/



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Also, Cabra East A (4k per sqkm) includes Dublin Industrial Estate (zero population).

    The populated area of this townland is next to Glasnevin Metro, where the density is likely 12k per sqkm in line with the surrounding townlands.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,590 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    As a person who lives very near Drumcondra, I don't think you can really say that. Drumcondra is served by probably one of the highest frequency bus corridors in the City.

    The works that they did by the Cat & Cage a few years ago have made a big difference. A week before Christams, I got the bus into town at 5pm from north of the Cat & Cage and I'm not joking I was in O'Connell St. in 10 minutes! With cars out of the way and proper bus lanes, the buses can really fly.

    And this is before we get to the BusConnects upgrades.

    Don't get me wrong, I'd have loved for the original Metro North to have been built at the time, it would directly have benefited me. But between improvements to bus services in the area, upcoming BusConnects works and Drumcondra Station becoming a DART station, I think the area is pretty well served.

    Though I also wish we had gotten the BRT on the Drumcondra/Swords Road.

    In the end, the new route makes more sense in terms of connecting with Rail, etc. and will make for a better overall project.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Brian, I'm not excluding the fact that Botanic A (just about 100-200m from the proposed metrolink station) includes Glasnevin Cemetery and the Botanic Gardens. It is a fact that that those are there, and are not going to be moved elsewhere. I wish Dublin every success in trying to elevate population density around Glasnevin Junction in that environment.

    Mountjoy B has a population density which is around 5 (five) times that of Cabra East A, which is where the proposed Glasnevin station is, yet the current proposals do not include a station for that large population.

    If my suggestion were implemented it would include at least one, and probably two, in that high-density area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    I'd be surprised if you could add on an extra 8k to the current 4k density in that ward.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    This townland is entirely unpopulated except in the blue areas. The majority of homes are in the south east side (beside Metro stop), so the population density here is substantially higher than 4k per sqkm.

    Mountjoy B has a high density but a low total population of 4,300 people, as it's a very small area. It's also a very quick walk to OCS or Connolly Dart or Drumcondra Dart.


    Post edited by brianc89 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 34 FrankLeeSpeaking


    McDonald's 'lack of integration' comment smacks of the old 'red and green lines are different gauges' nonsense that became something of a defacto living mythology for every journalist and group opposed to rail transport back in the day. Which alone, would not amount to much, but somehow this rubbish manages to weed its way into the public consciousness.

    It is also something of a fact that journalism in Ireland is an instinctive wing of the road lobby. I recall the war which the Sunday Business Post waged upon the Luas during construction, and when it was about to be opened had an 'expert in rail transport declare the Luas to be the worst train in the world'. It was akin to a retreating army lobbing shells in the direction of the enemy they were running away from.

    Have no fear, as hysterical and shrill as these pundits are, they have been on the retreat since the DART was opened in 1984 and they always will be.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    A not insignificant chunk of what is defined as Drumcondra would find it easier, or at least just as easy, to get to GJ as to Drumcondra station. I can't believe this crap is still be tolerated, the same irrelevant crap has been derailing this thread for years!



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Well it'll be 2025 before we see construction if at all. At that point hopefully the whataboutery will cease. 23 months to go (at least)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,775 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Nah, this guy won't stop spewing this nonsense even after it's too late to change things or even after reality has proved him wrong. I'm starting to wonder if it is actually Frank McDonald!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Its not just a recession that can derail it this time, they can now also cancel it without a recession based on cost. The same idiots who mothballed it, when the cost would have been fantasy prices compared to now...



  • Registered Users Posts: 34,258 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Today's letters. Shame the first one makes the usual mistake of going on and on about the airport when it's about so much more than that.

    Sir, – Frank McDonald rails against a proposal for Dublin which doesn’t chime with his own vision for the city (“MetroLink will lay waste to chunks of the city centre but won’t integrate city transportation”, Opinion & Analysis, January 7th). This time his ire is directed toward MetroLink, a piece of infrastructure that would provide a high-capacity public transport link between the city centre and Swords via Dublin Airport and that many, including myself, would like to see delivered.

    Frank McDonald claims that the proposal “is yet another example of the absence of joined-up thinking on transport in Dublin – a stand-alone project that doesn’t make coherent sense on its own and would need to be extended southwards in order to do so”. While ignoring the benefits of having a fast, segregated public transport link between the city centre and Dublin airport, your writer overlooks that the proposed MetroLink route would in fact help integrate existing public transport services across multiple locations in Dublin city. A new interchange with the heavy-rail network at Glasnevin is included in the proposal, while Luas and numerous bus services would be easily accessible from the proposed station on O’Connell Street and other city centre stations.

    While it can certainly be argued that the proposed MetroLink route could have been further optimised, it is unfair to say the MetroLink proposal is incoherent and will provide no meaningful benefits in terms of transport integration within Dublin city.

    Perhaps Frank McDonald would be so kind as to provide a follow-up piece which outlines his preferred approach for connecting Dublin Airport with a high-capacity, segregated public transport service with a specific route that mitigates against negative impacts on existing housing, public greenspace and buildings of interest? – Yours, etc,

    MARK CONNOLLY,

    Dublin 15.


    Sir, – Frank McDonald notes what MetroLink is not connected to, but omits to mention what it connects.

    MetroLink connects Dublin city with Swords, a growing town of over 40,000 residents.

    MetroLink connects Dublin city with its airport, the only major European capital city not to have a rail link to its airport.

    MetroLink connects with the Red and Green Luas lines at O’Connell Street.

    MetroLink connects with the Dart, and northern and south eastern commuter rail at Tara.

    But Frank McDonald, like many other opponents of MetroLink, only believes in MetroLink if it connects with the southside.

    But Dublin is more than the leafy southside and its Dortspeak residents.

    The city and county has a population of 1.5 million, and all its residents are entitled to have a Metro. – Yours, etc,

    JASON FITZHARRIS,

    Swords,

    Co Dublin.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,149 ✭✭✭plodder


    It is also something of a fact that journalism in Ireland is an instinctive wing of the road lobby.

    I think it's more newspapers/media "not refusing ink". Complex projects with competing interests and challenging problems to solve are a god send for the media looking for controversy to talk about. Most road projects are humdrum, but infrastructure in the cities is a different story. The Dublin tunnel had its fair share (remember the leaks and the seismic fault lines). The children's hospital is the current target. The day after these things open to the public is the day perspective arrives and all the nonsense just evaporates.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    The one to watch is Finglas luas. Quietly the team are preparing to submit a railway order without any public or political opposition and few significant cost or engineering barriers. It could be under construction even in late 2024. Mark my words the concrete will not be dry when calls to extend to the airport start. Extending it to the airport in its self would be worthwhile project, it would offer good journey times from the airport to Finglas, Cabra, Stoneybatter and anywhere on the maynooth DART line with a change at broombridge.

    If that happens metrolink is in trouble. And yes I know there's no comparison between metrolink and finglas luas but this is Ireland, its about what you (government in this case) can get away with.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I don't understand how it would be in anything but the govt's interest to have the project started before the next election. The cost overruns will be the next few govts issues to deal with.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,140 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    If anything, Luas finglas could be at least extended to Northwood along Margaret's Avenue, to tie in with the metro there. That provides a link to the airport with only a quick interchange. Would be much faster than a winding Luas going all the way to the airport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,301 ✭✭✭cgcsb




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Could well be back in govt by then, but there is certainly no glory in cancelling a project after all the work put into it when potential recriminations on costings and disruption are a problem for the next couple governments.

    Despite the pessimism of all and sundry and the frustratingly oft-repeated expectation that it will be canned, it would not be a popular move. There is no benefit to it in an electoral sense.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Brianc89, I'm really not sure what point you were trying to make about Cabra East A.

    The southern part of that ward, which you highlighted in blue, is already adjacent to the LUAS, and all within 200-400 metres of the Cabra LUAS stop. The western end of the ward could indeed sensibly be redeveloped from its current light industrial use to residential, to vastly increase the population in that part of the city.

    Yet the western boundary of that ward will be part of the LUAS route to Finglas, between Broombridge and St. Helena's, and presumably any conversion of the western end to residential would be designed with proximity to the proposed Finglas LUAS in mind, not the metrolink.

    When the line to Finglas is built, hopefully soon, pretty well everywhere in that ward would be within 400-500 metres of a LUAS stop (with appropriate measures taken, like a new bridge or two over the canal, or a well-lit underpass; or, given that the canal is almost unused in that area, a walkway across the canal might be devised). The Broombridge and Cabra stops should be very accessible from that ward.



  • Registered Users Posts: 910 ✭✭✭brianc89


    Don't change the subject. You keep referring to Drumcondra having higher population density, but when I point out the nuances of this you go back to Green Line cannibalism again - it's 900m to Cabra Luas (for humans, you know, humans use transport, not birds).

    Population density in Glasnevin Jc is comparable to Drumcondra if you consider the higher population density on the eastern end of Cabra East A, plus the high tourist numbers in Botanic A.

    Drumcondra already has a station which will be upgraded to full Dart. To what end do you insist on pushing this argument?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,977 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Michael McDowell in the Irish Times praises Frank McDonald's anti-Metrolink article as a "cogent piece". Circlejerk.




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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,797 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Christ, as if either of those two dinosaurs would ever accept "radical change"



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