Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

bennyineire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186695#Comment_120186695

Read the previous 3 posts

iffandonlyif

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2023/02/01/michael-mcdowell-state-has-real-problem-with-getting-things-done/

‘Everything in Ireland takes so long to move from planning to execution. Metrolink is a case in point.’

He and Frank McDonald have seemingly no self-awareness.

JPup

Yeah. Had to laugh at that. Arch conservative Michael McDowell who has made a career of stifling progress wherever he can, complains about delays to said progress!

Ronald Binge Redux

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186541#Comment_120186541

True, but given Official Ireland's proven preference for continual redesign over actual construction of projects...

crushproof

Yet no one in the Irish Times seems to cop on to the contraction here, just continue to publish their utter drivel.

Pete_Cavan

I assume the 2036 date has been taken because Metrolink is in the medium term 31-36 window in the recently published Greater Dublin Area Transport Strategy 2022 - 2042. The time for it becoming operational has been 31 or 32 for a long time now.

In fairness, Ryan has come out with similar nonsense himself recently, when the N/M20 was in the €1 - 3bn price band, he was calling it a €3bn project even though the estimates were nowhere near that.

Sam Russell

Politicians and the media always appear to take the most extreme level of costs - I think it makes it sound 'better' for the perceived audience.

Unfortunately it informs those putting in bids for such projects.

spacetweek

I still think the 2030s is unacceptably late for this project.

I wonder if they could consider opening Swords-Airport as an initially operating segment before then, since that will be popular with airport employees and includes the depot and would be good for working out teething issues.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120203538#Comment_120203538

Considering this version of the project launched in 2018, yes a 14 year long project is just too long.

A new critical infrastructure act should be brought in. Public consultation, preferred option selection, planning and the start of detailed design should take place within 1 year, and construction start should be no more than 2 years. Politicians should be barred from interfering in these projects, decisions should be made by technically qualified persons. The media should be barred from platforming crackpots on infrastructural issues. If that were the case we'd be looking at metrolink opening in about 18 months from now.

We've really done public consultation to death in Ireland. Metrolink even had a mini public consultation on the location of an intervention shaft, an inherently technical decision. It's going to have to stop, we're never going to get every single crackpot to agree to every detail.

Only a few weeks ago, RTÉ interviewed a woman (a randomer, no background in anything relevant) on a barge in the Royal Canal with flowers in her hair about DART+. She said the project should be stopped because of the harm it would do to wild life in and around the canal. The very same woman was then filmed blowing down the canal that she wanted to protect in her diesel powered barge, RTÉ merrily happy to accept without question, that the otters, swans and geese were literally being gassed by this mad woman claiming to protect them from electric trains.

VeryOwl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204532#Comment_120204532

It's worse. Not only has this iteration of the project (which arguably began in 2015) embarrassingly missed every single deadline for every single element, considering this project has slowly morphed back into being Metro North, it's essentially the same project as the early noughties dragging its heels. 20+ years and counting of total failure.

But the problem remains as it always was. Public consultations have certainly become bloated and obese, and judicial reviews are an out of control disaster. But the heart of it is that there's no political will to deliver any of this.

If we want to talk about farce... I think the opening of Pelletstown a year or so back summed it up for me. Half the government was at the opening of a small rail station - the only one opened in a decade - patting themselves on the back. That's the level of ambition. Knee deep in failure and Ryan (doing his best to destroy this Metro) and Varadkar (who personally oversaw the destruction of the last version of Metro) clucking about progress. Clownsville.

marno21

Atkins appointed for advance works design

https://www.geplus.co.uk/news/atkins-wins-advance-works-contract-on-dublin-metrolink-06-02-2023/

cgcsb

Great news. If there's utilities diversion going on by late 2024 we'll be in business.

brianc89

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2023/02/09/opw-warns-metrolink-will-have-severe-negative-impact-on-st-stephens-green/

Article from IT. Doesn't really detail what, if any, alternatives or solutions they suggest. The current plan avoids draining the lake as was proposed in MetroNorth, so it's miles better.

Their conclusion that the plans will impact the park negatively for "decades" is massively sensationalist. Have they considered the benefit to the park of removing fossil fuel burning cars from the city? No.

The State agency that maintains St Stephen’s Green in Dublin has expressed concern that the Dublin MetroLink project “would have a direct, severe, negative, profound and permanent impact” on the heritage value of the urban public park.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220901#Comment_120220901

In fairness, they seem to be talking about the felling of multiple trees within the park. Replacing them afterwards is still going to result in that section of the park looking "new", so to speak.

All told though, knowing that this project will result in a significant amount of trees being removed and replaced, I'm still totally onboard with this location.

Major infrastructure will cause disruption during construction. It is unavoidable.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220901#Comment_120220901

It's a bit rich from the OPW considering the way they sanitised Merrion Square.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220939#Comment_120220939

Well yeah I get that. But in fairness, if people understand the carbon cycle and climate change, this wouldn't be an issue. Wood is considered renewable as it grows back (and removes carbon) extremely quickly.

Felling trees to remove fossil fuel burning cars (very un-renewable) is nothing but positive.

Pete_Cavan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120220955#Comment_120220955

Merrion Square is controlled by DCC.

strassenwo!f

One thing which they could do, in advance of construction of the metrolink, would be to remove the existing parking and build a tramline circuit of the Green. This should be easily doable in, say, two years or less.

This would readily open up future possibilities for use of, say, Earlsfort Terrace or Merrion Row, for future tram lines into/out of the city. And if the current trams were diverted around this circuit, it would also make it much easier to construct the metrolink station at St. Stephen's Green West. That side is already effectively unused by car traffic and it would be a much better location for the metro station. It's much closer to the busiest parts neighbouring the Green, while the currently planned station is quite remote.

With the whole of St. Stephen's Green to work with - a side which was originally 4 (four)lanes of traffic, and wide footpaths, there really should be no need to impinge on the park at all.

This would add a couple of minutes to the Green Line's journey, but could be well worth it for the interim period during metrolink construction. And, as mentioned above, there could be longer term benefits for the tram network.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223041#Comment_120223041

Oh FFS.

Moving the the SSG station from the east side to the west side would mean that there could be no interchange at Tara Street.

strassenwo!f

I'm not following you.

There would appear to be loads of distaance to allow the route to go between Tara Street and a station at St. Stephen's Green West, via College Park.

If it can do the proposed O'Connell Street station to Tara Street station quite readily, as seems to be the case, the bit to St. Stephen's Green West should also be doable. Remember, it could be further 'up' St. Stephen's Green West than the current LUAS stop, while still being more useful as a location than the current proposal.

Hotblack Desiato

Then you're making it even further away from Grafton St than the current proposal.

Endless crayoning is pointless. It'll be built as proposed now or not built at all.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223041#Comment_120223041

2 years to construct a tram line at a location that's going to be dug up 18 months from now for enabling works for Metrolink, so useless expenditure in other words? What tram line do you know in Ireland (or anywhere in the western world) that went from concept to operation in 2 years? Even the most brutal of dictatorships don't have such delivery timescales.

The metrolink RO is for a station on the east side of the Green, not West Side and that's the scheme that will be granted RO this year and have enabling works begin in 2024.

strassenwo!f

What? How would it be further away from Grafton Street and its environs than the current proposal?

A very gentle curve from Tara Street, under (for clarification) the College Green soccer pitch in TCD (neighbouring, to the south, the newer libraries), is all that would be needed to get to St. Stephen's Green West.

A metrolink station located under the current LUAS stop would be ideal, but there is scope along that whole west side of the Green to give the busier parts of that part of the city a station which is much better placed than the current idea.

The current plan emerged because the metro planners didn't want to build under an active LUAS line, and they also didn't want to unduly disrupt traffic on St. Stephen's Green East. Thus, the plan was to eat into the park itself. The disruption phobia.

Building tram lines around the park, and connecting them with the current Dawson Street part of the Green Line, would allow the LUAS Green Line to continue its work during metrolink construction, albeit adding around 2 minutes to the Green Line's journey, and would allow sensible metrolink construction to take place in a better location - effectively a 4-lane road with wide footpaths - without causing any disruption to St. Stephen's Green itself.

In that scenario, there would, of course, be considerable bleating from people who like to park their cars around St. Stephen's Green. In most cases, the answer is to take public transport into the centre of Dublin or, failing that, find somewhere else to park.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223625#Comment_120223625

There's no RO application for that. We've an RO for the current scheme which is months from being granted.

strassenwo!f

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223623#Comment_120223623

According to the latest plan for Dublin, the metrolink is going to be delivered in the 2031-2036 period. That's around 9 years from now.

The current metrolink plan has gone in to ABP, who will report and undoubtedly give their approval some time later this year. Then, under the current plan, everyone will sit around for 7-8 years until construction is due to start.

That seems to be, broadly, the plan, as I understand it.

If Dublin has all of that time on its hands, why not spend a few months looking at the idea presented above, and maybe envisage what that might possibly enable for other untrammed suburbs, or what changes it might enable for the metrolink.

Whether the idea of a tram circuit of St. Stephen's Green is deemed to be of merit, or not, a revised or unrevised metrolink proposal could be sent to ABP in, say, 2026. They will then presumably approve it, and metrolink construction will commence 5 or so years after that. That is, broadly in accordance with the current timetable.

brianc89

It would be very possible to extend the Green line along SSG North to a new Luas Station at SSG East with the Metro.

Trams from North and South would have additional options for termination rather than all trams having to travel around Trinity.

OCS and Trinity will be extremely busy with buses when all the new spines are rolled out so removing some trams might be necessary.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120223142#Comment_120223142

For someone that posts so often in this forum about Metrolink, you must have a severe allergy to reading the documents that Metrolink have drawn up at considerable expense.

They looked at the very scenario that you suggest. They couldn't have a station on O'Connell Street, an interchange station at Tara St, and a station at SSG West. The curves required exceed the design parameters. The curve from OCS leaves the the Tara Street station pointing towards the southeast. The curve from there to SSG west is too great. That's it. Nothing further to be added here.

The Railway Order has gone in. It will not be changed. If it is changed, it will be because the process has to start again, which would easily add 5 years or so to the timeline. It will not happen, and anyone that wants to see any improvement in Dublin's transport network should not wish it so.

strassenwo!f

There you go, Brian. You are very much on the right track.

Just continue it around to the south side of the Green and connect it with the current LUAS Green line, and you've got what I'm saying.

The Green Line going around St. Stephen's Green to Dawson Street, probably on a temporary basis, frees up St. Stephen's Green West for construction, with no impact on the park and giving a better station location. .

With metrolink in place in St. Stephen's Green, would greater LUAS throughput on the Green Line (beyond the current levels, through the city) ever be needed? I have doubts, but a LUAS circuit of the Green could open up all kinds of possibilities if the city needs to deal with higher throughputs on the Green Line south of the canal.

For example, it has been suggested on this board that there might be a connection along Adelaide Road between Charlemont and Dolphin's Barn, and between Charlemont and Grand Canal Dock. A loop around St. Stephen's Green opens up the possibility to have a spur tramline along Earlsfort Terrace, and possibly to enhance either of those above suggestions. In those circumstances, it's not hard to see, say, a Grand Canal Dock to St. Stephen's Green route along the lines of Grand Canal - Adelaide Road - Earlsfort Terrace - around St. Stephen's Green (when the metrolink is completed) - back to Grand Canal Dock.

Obviously, the initial rationale for a tram route around St. Stephen's Green South, West and North would be to enable the St. Stephen's Green metrolink station to be built in the best possible location. But, with such a tramline in place, for that specific reason, other eventual possibilities for the tram network may emerge.

brianc89

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224106#Comment_120224106

Fortunately / unfortunately it's too late to delay this project further by making such a massive change.

The Metro will be supplemented by buses and an increasing number of Luas lines, so it's exact city centre location doesn't matter.

@strassenwo!f the current route has been submitted for planning. Fullstop.

loyatemu

How many people are likely to transfer from Metro to Luas or vice-versa at SSG - you'd do it at Charlemont or OCS rather than spend extra time trundling through the city on a tram; even if they were right beside each other at SSG.