Should Irish be made optional at schools.

I have, and I’m perfectly happy to leave it there when you’re engaging in the same bullshìt you did yesterday. You can take comfort from the fact that at least you weren’t expecting a different result.

You haven’t highlighted any fallacy in my logic. I didn’t say schools can’t offer options. You made the point that students are able to pick from subjects which are already optional. I pointed out that Irish is not one of those subjects.

Now I’ll point out the misrepresentation you’re engaging in -

So it's the government's fault and the education system (including Irish) is not fit for purpose and you want to force people to commit to it...

At no point have I ever suggested that people should be forced to commit to an education system which is not fit for purpose. I’m already aware that parents are not required to enrol their children in in formal education, ie they cannot be forced to commit to an education system which is not fit for purpose. Teachers don’t have to commit to it either, and in its current state I don’t recommend newly qualified teachers commit to teaching in Irish schools, because their enthusiasm and passion for education is not valued by the Irish Government. If it were, teaching might actually be regarded as a viable career choice and there wouldn’t be the shortage of teachers there is now.

Campaign for a better quality syllabus, THEN we'll talk.

What do you imagine I need to talk to you about regardless of what I do? You’re trying to argue in favour of making the Irish language an optional subject in Irish schools. I don’t need to talk to you at all, I’m perfectly content to have the Irish language remain a mandatory subject at all levels in Irish education, what I’m not satisfied with is the way it’s taught in the vast majority of Irish schools (excluding schools where An Foras Patrunachta is the patron, for obvious reasons).

I don’t expect there’s anything you can do about that, so I don’t see any reason or need to continue this particular discussion with you at this time, and certainly I have little interest in doing so when I expect you will only continue to misrepresent what I’ve said.

Where’s the false logic? As far as I can see the only false logic is your attempt to equate the Irish language which is not optional, with subjects which are optional, purposely ignoring, or overlooking the fact that the Irish language enjoys a special status in the Irish Constitution. I don’t need a referendum, you do, in order to change that.

I won’t be sending you any PMs, I don’t need to do that either. Whatever bizarre notions you have that you think you’re in an advantageous position, you’re perfectly entitled to maintain, it doesn’t actually change anything, which I’m fine with.

Ok now I see where you’re coming from. I didn’t the first time because I never argued in the first place that there was any constitutional requirement for the Irish language to be a mandatory subject in secondary education.

The requirement for the the Irish language to be compulsory in secondary education comes from the constitutional obligation to promote the Irish language, because it is the national language of Ireland. That’s why it’s not regarded as the equivalent of other subjects which can be made optional, such as was done with history recently. That’s why the Education Act requires the DES and the Minister for Education in particular to make the Irish language a compulsory subject in both primary and secondary schools in Ireland.

In order for that to change, there would have to be a referendum, similar to the one which no longer recognised the special position of the Catholic Church. Then it could be enacted in legislation to change the Education Act to allow for the Irish language to be made an optional language subject and not one of the core subjects required to be taught in schools recognised by the State for which an exemption is required in order to permit students to be exempt from having to learn the language.

Its popularity, or indeed lack thereof, isn’t what determines its value in terms of education. It’s the fact that it is recognised in the Irish Constitution as the national language of Ireland, is what determines its value and gives it the status it has as a compulsory subject in the Irish education system at both primary and secondary levels.

Tis less to do with Dev’s fantastical notions, and more to do with the fact that it was the people of the Irish nation at the time who adopted the Irish Constitution by a majority vote in a referendum -

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adoption_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

It hasn’t Jim, Article 8 is still the same as it always was -

ARTICLE 8

1 The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2 The English language is recognised as a second official language.

3 Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof.

https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#part2

It’s the same article the current Minister for Education referred to in her response to the question about the existence of any law, act or any other constitutional document under which the teaching of Irish in schools is made mandatory -

The Irish language is accorded special status in Ireland and is protected by various pieces of Legislation and in particular Article 8 of our Constitution which states that “The Irish Language as the national language is the first official language”. The language has particular social, historical and educational importance and is part of the unique cultural heritage of the Irish people. Irish is also an official language of the European Union. It is an aim of Government to increase on an incremental basis the use and knowledge of Irish as a community language.

In recognising the linguistic, social and cultural importance of Irish and English in Ireland, both languages are included as core subjects in the national curricula for recognised primary and secondary level schools and centres for education in Ireland. This has been the case since the foundation of the State and the importance of the teaching of Irish in this way has been re-affirmed on a number of occasions by the State, including most recently in the 20-Year Strategy for the Irish Language 2010-2030. All students in Primary and Second Level schools are required to study Irish unless they have been granted a Certificate of Exemption from the study of Irish.  

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2022-04-26/958/

It doesn’t come as the least bit surprising tbh, I don’t expect most people to be able to remember what they learned in primary school, particularly those adults who consider the Irish Constitution irrelevant to their daily lives. It does come as a surprise though when people I would expect to be familiar with the Irish Constitution, aren’t. That’s why Aodhán still has me scratching my head - it just doesn’t seem possible that a former teacher who became a politician, isn’t familiar with the Irish Constitution! Ordinary people don’t need to be familiar with the Constitution, but it should certainly be part of the Irish educational curriculum. That’s the whole purpose of ensuring people have a minimum standard of education. Whether they as individuals consider any or all of it irrelevant in their daily lives as adults, isn’t the point or the purpose of the education system. Clearly some adults have different interests than others, based upon what they were exposed to in early education, which was only ever meant to be a taster to introduce children to a wide variety of knowledge. Aodhán must have done an Eamonn Ryan on it and fallen asleep in class on every occasion when the Irish language in the context of the Irish Constitution was being covered, or he has no memory of it, it’s clear that even as an adult he has no interest in going outside the curriculum to do his own research which ends up with him asking questions which he should know the answer to.

That Irish is the first language most certainly isn’t just academic. You’re grossly underestimating the importance of its status as being recognised as the national language of Ireland, which is why it doesn’t surprise me either that you don’t care for the significance of the Irish language to the people of Ireland, or the Irish Constitution, until you try and do something which is prohibited by the Constitution. Then its significance becomes apparent, whereas it doesn’t if a person never finds themselves in circumstances where it does. By way of example, most people don’t have to consider their fundamental rights, because they’re rarely in a position where they have to rely on their fundamental rights, but if those rights did not exist in the Irish Constitution, well, you can imagine how that would go down. People find out very quickly what rights they have when they imagine they have a perceived right which doesn’t exist, such as declaring that the Irish language should be an optional subject in Irish schools, and imagining on the basis of their declaration that it becomes a reality.

Getting State services through Irish isn’t an issue so much as it’s dependent on the people processing the application being able to understand the Irish language. The Government plans on increasing the number of people who are able to do so with the amendment of the Official Languages Act, enacted last year -

The provisions in the new legislation include:

• An objective that by 2030 20% of new recruits to the public sector and the Civil Service be proficient in Irish.
• Confirmation that a deadline will be set whereby all State services in Gaeltacht regions will be available through Irish.
• A provision to end the language scheme system and replace it with a system of language standards.
• A provision to ensure that communications with a public body on social media are answered in the same language.
• A provision requiring public bodies to ensure that marketing material distributed to a class of the public be in Irish.
• A provision requiring public bodies to ensure that at least 20% of their annual advertising is in Irish.
• A provision to ensure application forms are available in Irish.
• A provision to ensure that the logos of public bodies are in Irish or in Irish and English.

The new provisions will be implemented over a period of time.

https://www.coimisineir.ie/treoirleabhar-dacht-na-dteangacha-oifigiula?lang=EN

(that being said, availing of State services through the English language isn’t any less fun if you’ve ever had to try it 😒)

It’s possible for two things to be true without any conflict between them - Gaelscoileanna have been unusually successful in promoting the Irish language given their lack of funding, which is why it’s entirely reasonable for them to suggest that more funding is required to support their efforts. Same goes for example with lobbying for the ET model of education - it represents a tiny proportion of schools in Ireland, but it’s been wildly successful in achieving its objectives of providing an alternative to Catholic education. It stands to reason that in order to meet the demands of a growing and more diverse population, the Government needs to provide a hell of a lot more funding for all forms of education than it does already in order to meet the educational needs of children in Irish society. The Irish Government appears to be promoting an entirely different approach which, while it’s unfortunate, it’s understandable in terms of their obligation to be prudent when it comes to public spending.

It’s probably for this reason Government isn’t looking to spend public money either on a referendum for which there’s no real demand among the general public to make the Irish language an optional subject in Irish schools. As you’ve pointed out yourself - not too many people really care about whether or not the Irish language is compulsory as a subject in Irish schools, because it’s an issue that has no relevance in their daily lives as adults.

There doesn’t need to be any great revival, nor do I imagine the population will wake up one day and collectively think anything. Just promoting the Irish language means more people are exposed to it, but that requires more funding. Promoting the language happens gradually, it certainly won’t happen in the short to medium term, but it doesn’t have to get to the levels of being regarded as a business language either. It simply means that people are encouraged to use the Irish language they learn, they don’t need to be full-on Gaeilgeorí. This for example -

“It’s great that additional funding has been announced for the Irish language and the Gaeltacht in Budget 2022. This funding was certainly needed to help promote the language in the Gaeltacht and beyond. I would also like to congratulate TG4 and the additional funding that the Ministers have provided to develop the new channel, Cúla 4, as a full-time channel in the future. Encouraging children is particularly important and there is no doubt that Cúla 4 is an extremely important support for parents raising their children through Irish and as a source of encouragement for their children. The new channel will also be a great encouragement to other children throughout the country learning Irish”

https://cnag.ie/en/news/1625-budget-conradh-na-gaeilge-has-welcomed-the-additional-€8-5m-in-budget-2023-for-the-irish-language-and-the-gaeltacht-and-the-additional-€7-3m-for-tg4.html

Leads to more of this -

TG4 retained its position as the 6th most watched tv channel in Ireland in 2020. TG4 moved up one place from 7th place in 2019 where it had ranked since 2014. TG4 is now watched more than BBC Two, Virgin Media Three and Channel 4 in Ireland.

 3.665m people or 83% of the population watched TG4 at some stage during 2020. The average viewing share for 2020 was 1.83%, and there was a 3% increase in primetime share from 2019 to 1.92%. October was the highest month in terms of audience share. The station had an all-day Share of 2.26% during the month. The highest single day reach in 2020 was 770,000 on December 20th.

https://www.tg4.ie/en/information/press/press-releases/2021-2/tg4-retains-its-position-as-the-6th-most-watched-channel-in-ireland-in-2020/

And again you’re addressing a point I’ve never made.

I’ve only pointed out that the Constitution requires that the Government promote the Irish language, because it is the national language of Ireland.

Your stating what Government doesn’t do, doesn’t support the idea that Government should be doing even less to promote the Irish language.

My point is that how the Government promotes Irish is by making it a core subject of the curriculum at both primary and secondary level education. They promote the Irish language too in other ways like through Arts and Culture, but what you’re suggesting, is that they shouldn’t promote the Irish language by making the national language an optional subject in secondary level education.

I’m trying to make sense of how you think that’s supposed to promote the Irish language, and for the life of me I can’t, I just think you aren’t thinking this through. I don’t think you’re thinking at all about how your idea benefits the promotion of the Irish language. I’d understand if it was just a case of you don’t care, but I don’t think that’s the case because I know your head isn’t so far up your own ass that you aren’t aware the Governments obligation to promote the Irish language is more than just about any one individual’s personal preferences when it comes to the education of the nation’s children.

Correct. Furtemore, I'd argue that making Irish a core subject does nothing to promote Irish.

Argue it then, I’d love to hear the reasoning behind your argument.

How is mandatory Leaving Cert Irish promoting the Irish language? And - just to be clear here - I'm not asking how it's supposed to, I'm asking how it does.

It’s educating children in the national language by making it a core subject in the curriculum. Children aren’t required to sit the exam, but they are required to learn the language, unless they have been granted an exemption.

It's not about education of the nation's children, it's about - and you say this yourself - the promotion of the Irish language.; If's not even about children its about young adults.

What I actually said though, before you presented it out of context, was this -

Governments obligation to promote the Irish language is more than just about any one individual’s personal preferences when it comes to the education of the nation’s children.

Well, the obvious answer to the first is in the results: other than clubs and rural pockets, very few students go on to speak Irish on a regular basis. I think you may have agreed with me on this some time ago when you said the govenrment was failing in this specific avenue a few days ago? Could be wrong.

It’s being a core subject on the curriculum is doing something to promote the Irish language then because it is is still used in clubs and rural pockets? The Government IS failing in this regard because it’s not doing enough in my opinion to promote and support the Irish language, as indicated by the fact that while very few students go on to speak Irish on a regular basis, surveys indicate that they still believe it should be mandatory on the curriculum at all levels -

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/report-reveals-student-support-for-compulsory-irish-1.4510604

(might be behind a cookie wall, I’m not sure)

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40241693.html

But because successive Governments have failed miserably to address the issues with how the Irish language is taught (making it a core subject alone isn’t doing enough to promote it), we’re now seeing the effects of that in trying to recruit teachers to teach the subject -

Maths was reported to be the most difficult subject to fill positions for, a subject that is mandatory on the curriculum and for which a high grade is needed as a requirement for many third-level courses. Irish followed as the second most difficult subject to recruit for, hinting at a bleak future for our native language as students who may or may not have been a fan previously are now under pressure as they risk falling behind.

http://trinitynews.ie/2022/12/recent-tui-survey-highlights-potential-reasonings-behind-teacher-shortage-in-ireland-and-not-a-single-one-is-surprising/

Which is why I said this -

Governments obligation to promote the Irish language is more than just about any one individual’s personal preferences when it comes to the education of the nation’s children.

So.you agree with me on the first part.

No I don’t agree with you on the first part. You said you’d argue that making Irish a core subject does nothing to promote Irish, and when I asked you to argue it, you told me that it was obvious from the results. I responded that making Irish a core subject isn’t doing enough. My point being that it should be maintained as a core subject, but change how the subject is taught.

You’ve yet to explain how making the Irish language an optional subject as opposed to a core subject in the curriculum constitutes promoting the Irish language in accordance with the Governments obligations to do so.

I’m not blaming teachers btw, it’s the Government’s responsibility to promote the Irish language, and I’m certainly not suggesting to hell with the freedom of the individual. I specifically made the point that it’s not just about any one individual’s personal preferences when it comes to the education of the nation’s children, meaning that there are more important factors involved than simply individuals freedoms, if you want to put it like that, if that’s the basis of your argument.

Making the subject optional won’t address the idea that it’s taught badly. It would just lead to a decline in students choosing to study it for the Senior cycle.

The second paragraph isn’t a moot point, you haven’t answered the question I asked. I’m aware it’s not your responsibility, I’m asking how does your suggestion that Irish be made optional fulfil the Constitutional obligation on the State to promote the Irish language. Obviously what’s important to you doesn’t override the Government’s Constitutional obligations to the people of Ireland!

Telling me that it’s obvious from the results, which are based upon past failures, doesn’t give me any indication of how a completely different approach is expected to work in the future, to promote the Irish language.

Telling me that’s not your problem is just avoiding the question completely. I already know it’s not your problem, I’m asking how your proposal serves the Government’s obligations to promote the Irish language.

The reverse-syntax is cognitively demanding and this may be good for developing minds (not presenting this as a fact! but as a theory).

Should have been taught properly which it hasn't been for roughly 100 years.