Should Irish be made optional at schools.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056209#Comment_120056209

It’s not a moot point because it goes to the heart of your argument that Irish should be made an optional subject. You also stated that -

Furtemore, I'd argue that making Irish a core subject does nothing to promote Irish.

I was keen to hear your argument, it’s not a trick question and it’s hardly an unreasonable request to invite you to do so. That students should be able to choose for themselves is what comes after you’ve been able to successfully demonstrate that your proposal has any merit in the first place. “I don’t care” was never going to cut it, but obviously I’ve no choice but to accept that’s all the answer I’m going to get.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056274#Comment_120056274

I answered that: it does nothing to help or promote the useage of the Irish language - and in a lot of cases fosters resentment.

The reason I think Irish (along with eveyting else to be concistent) is because I believe the student should choose what they want to study based on their own goals and interests.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056295#Comment_120056295

That was your answer to the question of Irish being mandatory, but sure look I’ll take it as an answer to the question I asked because I think it’s all I’m going to get 😂

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056327#Comment_120056327

Care to close out by telliing me why you think letting trhe student drop Irish (or whatever) and choose something they're better at or more interested is a bad idea? For the student specifically?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120056356#Comment_120056356

I don’t think it’s a bad idea at all, it’s an alternative form of education to formal education in an institutional setting, which works incredibly well for homeschooling, and I know a few people for whom it has been very beneficial in their circumstances. It’s an entirely different discussion though.

Barcley

I think it should remain compulsory but the way it's taught or at least was taught was a a disaster. The reality is that it's a second language for the vast majority of people and should be taught like a foreign language even though it isn't one. There's no point studying literature or poetry until students can hold an almost fluent conversation in the language. Also, something needs to be done to make students want to learn the language because trying to teach a language to people that don't really want to learn it is a waste of time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058343#Comment_120058343

While I agree with pretty much everything bar the first six words the question this kinda begs is: why would you want to force people to endure something you think is taught "is a disaster"?

Barcley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058383#Comment_120058383

That's a very good question but unfortunately I don't have a good answer. Firstly I think everyone should have to learn Irish as it's a big part of our history and culture, what's more, it's one of the two official languages of the country. Even if the teaching of Irish is a disaster, as it has been since the foundation of the state, we should still teach it to everyone. However, I do believe that it's possible to improve the way it's taught, for example, I learned French as an adult and all classes were exclusively in French and 75% of the time was spent in conversation and it was very effective compared to the way I learned Irish in primary and secondary school.

French Toast

Curriculum in 2nd level is hateful and most teachers will agree the recent overhaul to the Junior Cert has been a step backwards for Irish.

Make it optional after the Junior Cert and let it sink or swim on it's own merit. Fúck it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058414#Comment_120058414

Therein lies the problem - if everyone as to do it, why improve it? There's no motive.

I've no problem with it being taught for primary school kids. Give them a taste of it. After that, let them decided. As I said to Jack, I dislike the use of the word "our" on the basis that it's a big mistake to assume everyone feels a connection with history or heritage. You may say that's sad, but it's not a crime and doesn't make you a bad person.

In any case, after 5-10 years, they'll have had their heri8tage and history - up to them if they want to keep at it. Forcing them to keep doing it when they don't like or need it and the level of syllabus is poor is something I just don't get.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058414#Comment_120058414

How is Irish a big part of our history and culture beyond having a long history of failing to revive it. Irish has not played a significant part in Irish peoples lives for probably 150 years and being able to speak Irish has not defined an Irish person for at least that long.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058436#Comment_120058436

If you remove the requirement to learn Irish in secondary school you’d need to revise the teaching of English to include a very strong emphasis on grammar because we currently rely on Irish to teach grammar.

From what I see here in Switzerland, Americans and Brits who struggle to learn the local language do so because they don’t have the English grammar and usually find the whole thing too complicated and give up.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058414#Comment_120058414

Maybe that was because the French class was about teaching a language (and to people who wanted to be there) rather than using it to push an agenda about a history and a culture very few Irish people today can identify with

The mad thing is that the study of actual history as a subject is optional!

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058436#Comment_120058436

As I said to Jack, I dislike the use of the word "our" on the basis that it's a big mistake to assume everyone feels a connection with history or heritage.

Just by way of cleaning up any misunderstanding - the assumption that everyone feels a connection with history or heritage isn’t the basis upon which I refer to the Irish language as our national language. I refer to the Irish language that way because it exists independently of however anyone feels about it one way or the other, regardless of how many people do or don’t speak it. It remains the national language of Ireland, and is intrinsically embedded in Irish culture and heritage in the same way as Shelta for example is the language of Irish travellers - it is embedded in their culture and heritage.

Regardless of however people feel about the language or the utility of it being taught at any level in Irish schools, that’s the reason why it is taught, and will continue to be taught, regardless of however the majority of adults who have been taught in the Irish education system feel about the importance or lack thereof, of the language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092580#Comment_120092580

Fair enough, but that's still not a good basis on which to assume what's best for individuals

spookwoman

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058436#Comment_120058436

Totally agree. I have absolutly no interest in Irish language, history or culture. I rather listen to someone running their nails down a blackboard than listen to diddly eye music. I feel many rely on "history" to make excuses for many things, most often bad behavior and violence. I hated Irish language in school and refused to do it in the leaving cert and to this day I don't have any use for it. I liked Irish art history but again really disliked History as a standard subject. I rather have spent my Irish and religious class time learning something that I could use and was of interest.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058520#Comment_120058520

I don't remember them using Irish when teaching me english grammer. I don't know how they could do that when most kids know only english when they start school.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092638#Comment_120092638

There’s no assuming what’s best for individuals in anything, certainly not in a formal education setting. The provision exists for parents at an individual level to apply for an exemption on behalf of their child or children from Irish language classes.

Hotblack Desiato

Only under very specific circumstances as you well know.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092731#Comment_120092731

There most certainly is - or we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The exemption is bullshit - it should be the default. Opt in, not opt out.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092740#Comment_120092740

We’re having this conversation because we have a difference of opinion over whether or not there is an assumption of what’s best for individuals in a formal education setting.

If such an assumption did exist, then indeed opting in would be the default. This should make it clear that the assumption just doesn’t exist, which is why the provision to apply for an exemption exists.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092743#Comment_120092743

That makes mo semse: iif such an assumption [that the state knows what's best for the individual] exists, then opting in would be default...?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094088#Comment_120094088

I figured if you’re of the opinion that it should be opt-in, that in your opinion is what’s best for the individual. The State doesn’t even consider that possibility, it can’t, because the State is more concerned with the common good of Irish society. It does this through social policies such as making Irish a compulsory subject in primary and secondary education, and at the same time it recognises the Family as children’s primary educator, so it allows parents or guardians who qualify, to apply for an exemption to permit their children to be excused.

Obviously in your opinion the current situation shouldn’t exist, and opting in to learning the Irish language should be the default, and if that existed, there wouldn’t be any need for the provision of an exemption in education policy with regard to the Irish language.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094294#Comment_120094294

That is either a very poor explanation, or I'm right...?

The greater good isn't relevant and the family as primary educator is contradictory at best and completely hypocritical at worst (state is trumping family as primary educator) and all.of it is unnecessary and bloated.

Or

The primary good is assuming what's best for the student and denying the opt in and your previous post makes no sense.

How is denying the opt-in NOT assuming what's best for the student?

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094358#Comment_120094358

It’s a poor explanation in that case, and given what you’ve written above, I’m convinced I’m not going to be able to articulate the point in a way that you’ll understand. There’s no gotcha or anything else, the point is that the State isn’t interested in the individual needs of each and every individual student, it leaves that to their parents or guardians.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094415#Comment_120094415

Well thanks for that condescending remark...

It's not a gotcha, it's more of a QED.

The State is not interested in the needs of the of the individual student - my point entirely - but it doesnt defer to patents because excemptuons are only given in specific circumstances and not granted automatically.

The State has no more interest in letting the parents choose than it has in letting the student choose, point clearly proven. Bringing up parents is a complete red herring - State doesn't give a flying **** about them either (and yes, is in violation of the all holy constitution).

I'm leaving now - no interest in debating with someone who tells me I'm effectively too thick to understand a point that is clearly erroneous in the first place.

sekond

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120058343#Comment_120058343

So you split Irish into two subjects at LC level. 1 subject is Irish Language - taught mostly like French/German - conversational, day to day. If you are going to look at texts - then newspapers etc. Keep that one compulsory. Other subject is Irish Literature - closer to the English curriculum - literature, poetry etc - optional for those who like/are good at Irish.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094511#Comment_120094511

Well thanks for that condescending remark...

Jaysis PB I dunno what way you’re reading my posts, but there was no intent to be condescending. I was acknowledging the fact that it IS my fault that I can’t articulate the point any better in a way that you would understand where I’m coming from. You said it was a poor explanation, and I figured “fair enough, I can’t do any better”.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094667#Comment_120094667

I’m convinced I’m not going to be able to articulate the point in a way that you’ll understand

That's condescending.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120094708#Comment_120094708

It’s not, it’s stating a fact about myself, that based upon your post, I’m convinced I’m not able to articulate the point in a way you’ll understand. You have to admit it’s not for the want of trying, I have tried, and you still maintain your position which is in direct conflict with mine. That’s my fault for being unable to articulate my point in a way you’d get it. You’ve clearly not gotten it so far in spite of my numerous previous efforts, so do I keep going, expecting the result to be any different, or do I say fair enough?

Accepting that I’m not going to be able to do something is the more rational and reasonable course of action at this point.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120092665#Comment_120092665

To translate to Irish from English you need to know English grammar.... In the angloshpere world they don't spend much time dealing with grammar, so when such individuals end up here in Switzerland where we have four national languages they struggle to learn any of them because they have little or know understanding of grammar. Telling someone that they need to use the dative case in German because it is in the dative case in English for example will get you blank looks so you end up having to explain the English first.