Should Irish be made optional at schools.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102154#Comment_120102154

I've always wondered wny the powers that be have never actually considered that route - shows the level of ignorance and arrogance in the admin of educational Irish. But then, if ipeople have to do it, where's the incentive to improve?

My take is that they aren't actually conerned about the language, just the status of the language.

swimming in a sea

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120102524#Comment_120102524

No school didn't accommodate it, I took it on myself to head to the library when Irish started. At first the teachers marched me back to class but after a while they gave up.

I decided i was better off concentrating on 6 subjects only applying to courses in DCU/UL as they didn't require Irish, so limited my choice. So the opposite of what a guidance councilor would say, but even doing Irish always put me in a bad mood for the rest of that day and when i stopped doing it my other subjects came on a lot.

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120101319#Comment_120101319

This is what I meant when I said that the States acknowledgement of the Family as the primary educator of children, doesn’t extend to parents having the right to tell schools how to manage their affairs. Parents, as the primary educators of their own children, are free to provide this education themselves, OR in schools which receive public funding. That right doesn’t extend to parents having the authority to decide what subjects their children study in publicly funded schools.

The right of children to attend publicly funded schools without attending religious instruction, exists independently of that, and has nothing to do with a right which neither children nor their parents have, to decide what subjects they study in publicly funded schools. That’s why I said you were moving the goalposts telling me your children are opted out of religion. That has nothing to do with anything.

rob316

Its a tough language to learn IMO, I took to French and Spanish after school much easier. I actually think the quality of fluency would improve if it was optional than just everyone learning a few cupla focal.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120103738#Comment_120103738

Nope, still wrong

https://assets.gov.ie/132103/f10eb5b6-fb2c-4dc9-bcc8-6d7c33e8b973.pdf

Section 19

The school principal must follow the procedures set out in the Circulars and in the Guidelines when considering an application for an exemption.

Furtermore, your claim here that

Parents, as the primary educators of their own children, are free to provide this education themselves, OR in schools which receive public funding. That right doesn’t extend to parents having the authority to decide what subjects their children study in publicly funded schools.

is slso wrong as this doesn't even mean that they can exempt their child from Irish. State department of education STILL tumps the parentrs.

Section 22

... A pupil/student who is home-schooled or enrolled in a school which is not recognised cannot therefore be granted an exemption from the study of Irish under the terms of these circulars

One eyed Jack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120105592#Comment_120105592

I can’t understand what you’re saying here, but it looks like you’re clutching at straws which have nothing to do with what was being discussed.

Flinty997

I used to think Irish should be kept for cultural reasons. But I don't anymore. The majority (teachers and students) aren't interested. Too many who teach it are like fanatics from Sparta. They take no prisoner's, kill their wounded. They leave behind them a trail of broken and miserable students, for whom Irish is their most hated subject.

Parent Teacher meetings with kids teachers only reinforce this for me. Other than a couple of teachers, who managed to keep everyone engage and improving, and liking the subject, universally liked. The rest of the Irish teachers I've had interactions with I've instantly disliked, and been proved right by their subsequent behaviour.

As others have said it seems to rush into prose, poetry before people are in any comfortable with the language. I actually liked what books we covered. But I was a passenger for much of it, replying on English translation, while my teachers taught entirely in Irish.

jiminho

Haven’t read through the previous posts but I’d consider the following:

1) Make it optional after JC. Boggles my mind why it’s still compulsory for LC

2) More focus on the oral and aural aspect in primary school i.e learning how to speak the language.

Strumms

the last time I spoke Irish, or had a necessity to engage with Irish was the day I had my Irish leaving cert exam.

I studied it, learned it…for 13 years… from junior infants, to sixth year. From the day I left school at 18…. I was never impacted by any situation, not for a fraction of one second, where..

1) I needed to know, understand something in Irish

2) I needed to converse with someone in Irish.

the vast vast majority of people it’s the same. Political gamesmanship is the sole reason it’s taught.

Not having it as an optional subject is farcical beyond description and an abominable waste of time for the majority of students.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185231#Comment_120185231

It's taught because it's part of Irish culture and was persecuted to extinction. But that's no excuse for how its taught today.

babyducklings1

We should keep it ( after all it was our main language before the famine ) but then went into decline. . But we need to make it more attractive for young people and for everyone.

More real life actual areas where it is spoken, streets, etc. make it part of real life. I don’t think it’s that hard a language to learn especially since we’ve been doing it since we were five, the problem is we don’t speak it and we have no national pride in it , like a poor relation really! Kids do pick it up but then they have no where to use it ???

_CreeD_

Language is a tool. When the tool no longer fits you don't fix it by deliberately trying to make more of the things it does you just use the tool that fits now. It being spoken in the past isn't a justification for using it now. As for our culture and history why is that better kept in a language almost no one in our own country speaks let alone the rest of the world, translate what you treasure and want to preserve and move on.

I do believe it should be available as optional only. And certainly not a requirement for college courses that have nothing to do with it, if that's still a thing. While quite a while ago now I was not able to get into Physics in Trinity because I only had pass Irish, more than enough in everything else, that was just nuts.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185397#Comment_120185397

I'm not sure that just because something mostly only exists in Ireland that's a reason to let it disappear.

We just shouldn't be forced into it. Carrot not the stick.

_CreeD_

I didn't say to let it disappear but rather make it optional. In practical terms people typically learn other languages for business (esp. if you are not a native English speaker) or because they are moving to or spending enough time in a country that doesn't speak their current to justify it. Neither of these apply for Irish so to me it's essentially a cultural topic akin to Art, the fact that I see it as impractical doesn't mean I don't respect their right to a choice. But kids should not be forced to sacrifice valuable education time in other areas because of it.

Flinty997

Is there an equivalent to Peig or An Tóraíocht when you learn German?

The reason you learn Irish is not the same reason you learn a language for business. It's a false equivalence.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120185295#Comment_120185295

It's not part of Irish culture, though. It hasn't been for several decades.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186643#Comment_120186643

Sorry what? There's an expiry date on culture?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186768#Comment_120186768

More of an evolution date. Cultures evolve, people move on, traditions cease to serve their intended purpose.

Not saying that's the case with the language, but it depends on what your definition of 'culture' is.

Flinty997

Even they fall out of use they are part of the culture. What happens today is built on the past. Even if you are unaware of it.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186926#Comment_120186926

The Irish language was part of Irish culture. It is not now nor has it been for quite a long time.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186926#Comment_120186926

I would disagree - for me, to be cultural something should at least have a presence. And I don't see anything which today fits the discription of 'built upon'. The educatrion system itself is very much an exercise in continuity rather than expansion.

And that's before we get to the useof 'our' and the issue of individuality v conformity.

RetroEncabulator

It's fairly obvious when you've the majority of the population coming out of school, having studied Irish (quite heavily) for 14 years and generally being unable to understand enough of it to even follow a news story on TV, there's something profoundly wrong with how it's been taught.

What we are doing at the moment isn't preserving the language. It's turned the current approach to Irish teaching into a sacred cow that cannot be analysed and there's obviously an entire profession that are not going to want to be reduced to teaching conversational classes and trad music, if we went to a more cultural and fun approach.

So we're somewhat stuck...

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186963#Comment_120186963

What's particularly galling is that Europe is littered with success stories and many countries now have bilingual populations able to speak their own language, English and maybe even one or two more. Ireland just decided to fund the Irish language lobby's lavish lifestyles.

RetroEncabulator

The issue is they aren't littered with examples of a language that pretty much died or at least came very close to it, and one that exists in a massive media and global bubble language like English. It's very hard to find a context to actually use Irish and things like translating bureaucracy into Irish doesn't really create that either. You get examples in Europe of bilingual and tri-lingualism, but mostly it's in border regions where you've multiple language which are in very active use - e.g. Belgium (French, Flemish and German) or the alpine regions where you get interplay between several languages etc.

You've also got countries and regions where the language is the key identifier. That's a big deal on the continent but it's also a big deal in Wales because it's often what really marks it out as not being just accidentally merged into England.

Ireland's quite geographically distinct and hard to confuse. It's extremely well branded up culturally and has very much made its own of English too. It's hard to not notice Irish culture and it's very identifiable in a global context, particularly in the anglophone bubble and European context we're mostly interacting with. Scotland's similarly very identifiable and also similarly struggles to reinvigorate Gàidhlig.

I'm not saying it's a lost cause, but I think we need to perhaps think about what the cause actually is. We aren't going to somehow recreate (or create) a primarily Irish speaking society just because it's someone's dream, but we could certainly improve funding for things like language and cultural activities and really have some fun doing it and make the language thrive where it can thrive naturally.

I'd rather see people coming out of school having enjoyed Irish, knowing a bit of the cultural context of it and enjoying using a cúpla focail, being able to use it more conversationally and having some kind of fun with it, rather than so many having seen it as a burden for 14 years.

Teaching Irish the way it's being taught has basically turned it into some kind of exercise in mental gymnastics, like learning Latin. The effort should have been put into things like helping to ensure there's a vibrant context to use it.

whisky_galore

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186926#Comment_120186926

Plenty of things fall out of use or become extinct, and no one dies as a result. Because more often than not, no one wants to partake in them anymore.

A thatched cottage was once an everyday part of our culture, but not many would want to actually live in one nowadays.

RetroEncabulator

I had ear problems (resolved now) but I was quite hard of hearing in primary school and in the first couple of years of secondary school and probably should have had exemptions but was heavily pushed away from them by my teachers and really, really struggled with Irish. I nearly failed it in the Leaving despite grinds and going got to the Gaeltacht and all of that.

In general I found the teachers extremely unhelpful and quite aggressive about making sure I didn't get an exemption. They hadn't a clue how challenging it was. Only accommodation I got was they used to put me closer to the speaker during those listening comprehension tests.

The main Irish teacher I had used to throw dusters at me and call me an amadan or a gligeen.

I ended up getting just about the passing grade I needed to get into university on the ordinary level paper.

Basically had I not got the grade, I would have been emigrating to the UK to go to university which is nuts when you think about it, as I had pretty high grades in the other subjects that were actually relevant to the course I was doing!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186961#Comment_120186961

The Irish version English was very much influenced by Irish. But since around 1990 English in Ireland has became Americanized. History is part of culture. Translated Songs, poems, stories, are not the same thing at all.

Irish didn't decline because of disinterest. It was deliberately driven out. This didn't happen in other European countries, which why their languages survived.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187202#Comment_120187202

None of this really challenges my point: the individual chooses what is important to them,

Nor is the history relevant - what's relevant is what's happening now

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120187202#Comment_120187202

It wasn't. English was the language of the oppressing occupier but also the language of trade, commerce and progress. Things like the famine and emigration didn't help of course.

_CreeD_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186571#Comment_120186571

...Re-read the post, that's exactly what I said...

And Peig, christ the horror 😉 (not to mention why would you think there aren't equivalent works in every language 🤔)