F1 2022 thread - see post 1 for rules

Frank Bullitt · 28-10-2022 05:21PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805491#Comment_119805491

I think you are getting into conspiracy theory territory there with your last sentence.

PsychoPete · 28-10-2022 05:26PM

Sky coverage will be unbearable this weekend with them banging on about this

bennyx_o · 28-10-2022 05:43PM

Picture showing the history of Sauber in F1. 2010 has to be the stand out

JRant · 28-10-2022 06:19PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805532#Comment_119805532

I think you've taken me up wrong here. I wasn't implying that RB cheated, far from it. Just trying to highlight how difficult a charge of cheating would be to apply, especially in a sport with so many interpretations and clarifications.

There's no indication they tried to hide anything from the FIA, they did try to stretch some of the interpretations a bit to far though. They seem to have been on the level with the FIA. Honer should have kept quiet on the entire issue though, he's come out of this with more than a little egg on his face after his very strong words a couple of weeks back.

thefa · 28-10-2022 06:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805460#Comment_119805460

Think it would be tough to use as a precedent for all overspends less than 5%. The amount of the overspend is called out at 0.37% and noted at the lower end of a minor breach. Would be nice if they clarified the basis for it.

KillerShamrock · 28-10-2022 06:50PM

How is the use of tax credits fair in this im sure all the uk based teams used them but what about Ferrari/alpha tauri (Italy) and Sauber/alfa (switzerland I think) and Haas (but they have a UK headquarters) they arent uk based would they get the same treatment same level of tax credits/amount refunded?

It should be spending before tax credits so that means red bull were at least 5+ million over the what about the rest of the teams are they all over too? most likely!

Looking at it like that 5Mill + over on catering and social security makes this look even more dodgy they just couldnt pair it down by 400K.

Apparently the FIA got them down from 1.8mill to 400k using a tax credit they missed.

Sorry but you set a cost cap it should be that and that only, no tax credits or anything to help you skirt rules or cheat the system you are given a budget of £135mil you should be made stick to it all things final no ifs, ands or buts. You dont you lose points or get DQ'd from one or both championships or have the fine taken from your next years budget. Not this Paltry slap on the wrist the Red bull got.

This is Fernando is faster than you territory all over again something that they claim is enforcable but clearly isnt and has already been made a mockery of most likely by all teams red bull just got caught out and by accepting the ABA they are not denying despite Horner insisting they were well below.

JRant · 28-10-2022 06:58PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805873#Comment_119805873

It's a 1.6% overspend, as per the FIA and agreed to by RB. That's why it's going to be a difficult to argue it's not a precedent.

Frank Bullitt · 28-10-2022 07:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805772#Comment_119805772

Toto as well, he had said that a team was "massively" over the budget. That isn't the case either.

El_Duderino 09 · 28-10-2022 07:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805907#Comment_119805907

I hadn't realised it would include tax credits. It would be interesting to see how much they spend before the tax credits in each country. I'd be surprised if local corruption doesn't come into play. Teams with the ability to lobby government to carve out tax breaks.

I wonder will there ever be an incebyto outsource some production to low wage economies like China or Eastern Europe. Presumably they could smudge is all over with more national borders and more tax regimes.

JRant · 28-10-2022 07:11PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805957#Comment_119805957

In fairness to Toto, 1.8 million is a massive amount of money. The big difference is that he's not the one currently in breach of the rules so I'll cut him a little slack on this one.

Munstersrebel · 28-10-2022 07:28PM

h

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805957#Comment_119805957

toto is the biggest gaslighter in F! he and his manbaby Hamilton. Remember how he could 'barely' get out of the car and Sky lapping it up and hyping it. And then the FIA decides to enforce an addon to the chassis and surprise surprise Merc has an homologated example within 48 hours from the FIA releasing it to combat the porpoising. And toto gleefully predicting it would hamper his opponents speed. Add to this that his former personal lawyer joined the FIA...

But sure blame RB. Merc and ferrari hide this costs in the other business components and none cares... because Sky dont care and LH benefits from it...

Mercedes AMG Media network is Sky's new name

dulpit · 28-10-2022 07:32PM

The annoying elements here are that red bull said (on f1 show earlier) that they didn't do the trial run last year. So any honest mistakes that could have been ironed out didn't get a chance.

And realistically, if you polled everyone last year and asked which team was most likely to breach the cost cap, I'd wager nearly everyone would have said red bull.

I did see a great suggestion that a better punishment is ballast to the car. The greater the overspend the heavier the ballast. Weight has such an impact it would cause major issues, would bring teams into line.

dulpit · 28-10-2022 07:33PM

Oh and I also saw that the fine isn't counted in the cost cap, so for the big teams it doesn't affect them at all. For the teams that are not yet at the cost cap a fine would cripple them, seems very unfair.

thefa · 28-10-2022 08:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119805938#Comment_119805938

Take a look at the full statement. 0.37% is the right final figure as per the FIA. Arguing 1.6% is basically saying I’m including one part they done wrong but not the other.

Your argument makes no sense in any case. The concept of applying a flat fine for every overspend between 0-5% based on this is flawed.

McFly85 · 28-10-2022 08:28PM

The punishment definitely feels lenient but predictably so. As others have said the crucial element is the fact that there was no attempt at deception from RB. I’m still surprised they haven’t reduced the RB cap for a year or 2.

Im sure the Sky coverage now will be purely about how lenient the FIA have been.

JRant · 28-10-2022 08:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806242#Comment_119806242

Taken directly from the BBC article

"This amounts to an understatement of accounts of nearly 5% and an adjusted overspend of 1.6%.

A total of 13 points of non-compliance included an understatement related to their new power-unit business and fixed costs, and costs relevant to catering, social security, apprenticeships, inventory (unused parts) and non-F1 activities.

The fine has to be paid within the next 30 days.

The FIA said that had Red Bull applied the correct treatment to a notional tax credit, the team would have exceeded the cap by only £432,652."

So 1.6% was the overspend. If RB had correctly applied the tax credit then it would have been 0.37% but they didn't, so they weren't.

I'm in no way suggesting a flat fine would be applied. My argument is that when more severe punishments are handed out in the future and it goes through the courts there's a good precedent to have it overturned unless there are extenuating circumstances.

McFly85 · 28-10-2022 08:42PM

Well it sounds like the FIA consider the breach in real terms to be the 0.37%. Which I don’t think has any real relevance on future breaches unless they’re all due to misapplied tax credits.

If there was a 2% breach in future that was found to be hidden from the FIA and there was an attempt to hide it then you’d imagine the punishment would be far more severe. There’s no real point in looking at this breach and what it means for the future.

Ultimate Gowlbag · 28-10-2022 09:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806065#Comment_119806065

😂😂😂

thefa · 28-10-2022 09:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806305#Comment_119806305

You can choose to be as pedantic as you wish on the wording but the fact is the FIA summarized that the net effect of all the accounting understatements was 0.37% over the budget cap. That was the basis for the fine.

A strong precedence based off this doesn’t make much sense unless you’re talking about lower breaches getting more harshly punished which wasn’t really implied from your earlier posts on about anything less than 5%, etc. The materiality has been identified and mitigating factors are there.

AMKC · 28-10-2022 10:30PM

How is 2010 the standout? 2007 is there standout for me they were 2nd in the constructors that year.

dulpit · 29-10-2022 12:00AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806764#Comment_119806764

Look at the team name and look at the engine...

jacool · 29-10-2022 08:47AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119806065#Comment_119806065

I'm relieved that intellectually we have arrived at using terms like "manbaby". Does this show us the mentality of your average RB apologist?

flazio · 29-10-2022 08:55AM

I think this is where I step away from Formula 1 fandom until next March

Munstersrebel · 29-10-2022 10:24AM

I use man baby because his ego needs to be very carefully managed. Russel outshone him first half of the season and not one peep from Merc. Its always LH, with the porposing he acted like he couldnt walk straight...

If you want to call me anything... call me a saddened Vettel fan. the lad wasted his best years on Ferrari and Aston.

El_Duderino 09 · 29-10-2022 11:12AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807648#Comment_119807648

Vettel spent his best years very well at red bull. Until he was beaten by a young Ricciardo and left. Then he was pretty good for a year and a half at Ferrari until it fell apart in mid 2018 and he added a lot of spins and crashes to his performances. Then he was comprehensively beaten by a young Charles Leclerc. He's nowhere near his best at Aston Martin and he's never really shaken his tenancy for spins and crashes.

He's dead right to retire. But the notion that he's been at his best at AM, is bonkers.

El_Duderino 09 · 29-10-2022 11:26AM

There's a good analysis of thr cost cap agreement between RB and the FIA on The-Race podcast.

There are a few parts which look like sloppy accounting but the catering looks dodgy.

They also misinterpreted the sick leave rules. Rules say they have to count the original sick staff members' pay when they're sick, but don't count the replacement's wage (unless the original sick staff member dies and is permanently replaced. In that case they count the replacement and not the original staff member) this was it prevents them subbing in people with specialist skills at different times in the season. RB made a balls of that.

But overall the point is that by doing the agreement they accept a less severe punishment than if they didn't admit to it. That's wwhy the punishment is less severe than some would have liked. That's the whole point of the agreement rather than fighting it out.

[The Race F1 Podcast] What Red Bull's cost cap breach penalty means for F1 #theRaceF1Podcast

https://podcastaddict.com/episode/147568019 via @PodcastAddict

Munstersrebel · 29-10-2022 11:41AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807790#Comment_119807790

Eum i kinda said he wasted years in AM and Ferrari. And look where Dani the magnificent is now? Dropped by McLaren coz he is languishing in the McLaren

El_Duderino 09 · 29-10-2022 01:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119807870#Comment_119807870

What's your point about Ricciardo? He beat Vettel and turned out to go downhill? It can happen to drivers. It certainly happened to Vettel.

You said Vettel wastes his best years at Ferrari and AM. But he went downhill rapidly from mid 2018 and never recovered. He didn't waste his best years at Ferrari and AM Because he wasn't near his best at either team.

Cool_CM · 29-10-2022 04:09PM

If anybody held off getting the Lego Technic McLaren, it's down to €139 in Smyths at the moment (€200 on the Lego site). There's an extra tenner off too until Tuesday because they have a lego sale on:

https://www.smythstoys.com/ie/en-ie/toys/lego-and-bricks/lego-technic/lego-42141-technic-mclaren-formula-1-2022-race-car-model-set-for-adults/p/204041

Jordan 199 · 29-10-2022 04:22PM

Lego Technic is brilliant.

F1 2022 thread - see post 1 for rules

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