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Considering getting a PHEV - anyone happy with theirs?

  • 11-10-2022 11:11am
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭

    I'm considering getting a PHEV - is anyone happy with theirs? I have read lots of complaints on range, anyone getting 50/60k reliably? And is there a PHEW out there with a decent boot size?



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,387 ✭✭✭✭ELM327

    What's your use case? Generally you'll save more money in a full EV

  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭MercuryBoy

    Need something capable of doing longish drives (2 hours +) on weekends and 5-10k daily on weekdays.. not sure a full EV would have the range for the longer journeys? Also need something with a good amount of space for 2 dogs and a child, have been considering the Peugeot 2008 & 3008, Kia Niro & Sportage

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭kirving

    You're likely to hear lots of people dead set against them here, and from a statistical point of view they might be correct, but if a BEV doesn't work for you, it's a non-runner and a PHEV can be a great alternative.

    Realistically though, 50/60km is very optimistic outside of anything but absolutely ideal conditions for most PHEV's.

    Budget? New / Second hand? Size requirements? If you can afford a full EV with the range you need, and it suits you, go for it.

    As an anecdote, I can do my daily commute on EV mode, and much of my weekend driving on EV mode. But my weekly Dublin-Galway commute puts an EV out the window. I sometimes need to do Dublin-Galway-Dublin in a single day too. I rent in both Dublin and Galway, and while I can charge using a granny cable at both, I'd spend over a years worth of fuel savings on chargers for both places which I'd need with an EV that could do that range.

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin

    Well 2 hours is a bit ambiguous, I can sit in Dublin traffic for 2 hours and only travel 30km 😉

    But it sounds like you're looking for 300km+ of range. There's plenty of BEVs which can cover that. ID.4, EV6, Ioniq 5, Ariya, Toyota BZ4X or whatever it's called. They should all cover the range and have plenty of boot space

    Now, there's a question you'd need to ask yourself is whether you can and are willing to use public charging on those longer drives. If you're on a well served route then it could be worthwhile to sacrifice 20 mins a week to save thousands on the cost of the car

    This is all assuming you can get a home charger and day/night meter to charge cheaply. If you don't then this is a hurdle you'll need to figure out before considering anything with a plug, EV or PHEV

    To answer your original question, there's plenty of happy PHEV owners here who swear they're better than EVs. There's also a large number of EV drivers who say PHEVs are outdated and have too little battery range

    It's up to the use case, but what I will say is that a PHEV only works if you drive it on electric for the vast majority of the time. This means you're plugging it in almost every night.

    From what you've said you can probably get most of your weekday driving on electric with a charge every second night. Then charge up on Friday and Saturday to try and get as much of the weekend in EV mode

    If that's not something you can manage then perhaps a big battery BEV is the way to go, then you only need to plug in once a week

    For context, I've an ID.4 77kWh and generally I'm doing similar driving to you, probably a bit less at weekends. I'm currently charging once a week, sometimes twice if I do a lot of driving at the weekend

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost (Escapist magazine)

  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭MercuryBoy

    the main thing that puts me off a full EV is having to consider changing when arriving at a destination , the last thing I want to do after a long drive is go looking for a charger etc then have to move the car and park it again , seems like it would add at least an hour onto each journey and if I’m going away for a weekend I don’t want that hassle ….

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  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭MercuryBoy

    How much is charging at home costing people these days ? I’ve heard it costs around €10 ?

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,167 ✭✭✭eagerv

    I only use destination charging when it is convenient for me, otherwise most of us probably prefer the more expensive on route fast charging which will probably be relatively rare so price doesn't really come into it.

    Of the cars you mentioned I would consider the E Niro, great range and warranty, not sure of current pricing.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭mailforkev

    Depends on your battery size and your electricity rate. Just multiply the two and add 10% to allow for loss.

    Something with a big battery on night rate would be pushing a tenner alright. A lot cheaper than fuel per 100km.

    My father in law bought a Niro PHEV in 2020, fairly similar use case to yourself, weekday pottering and regular trips to relatives down the country. I told him at the time to buy the full EV version but the fear got him, so PHEV was what he went for.

    He collected his new full EV version of the Niro last week. Now wishes he had done so first time around.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭kanuseeme

    Does the e-niro price include the grant?

    I would think its easy enough to get 50 km from the phev, 2000 euro buys a lot of petrol,

    Any of the phevs stated range, knock 20% off it, to get a more realistic range, its possible to get more and also possible to get less, but a nice non-aggressive driving style should easily do it.

  • Registered Users Posts: 20,387 ✭✭✭✭ELM327

    From your use case, few km during the week and an hour or two at weekends, you'd be mad to get anything other than a full EV. Either save money on the initial cost and get a cheap petrol car, or save money on running costs and have a cheaper total cost of ownership and get a full ev. PHEV are in the worst of both worlds.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 785 ✭✭✭sh81722

    Thinking long term I'd say the EV will easily be worth 2k more when it's time to trade in.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,388 ✭✭✭cannco253

    I regularly do Galway-Dublin-Galway in a day.

    With the ID.4 I stop for 10 minutes at Ionity Athlone on the way up and 15 minutes on the way back, just enough time to use the facilities and grab some food.

    If you sign up to one of the Ionity plans it pays for itself fairly quickly, and Athlone has (usually) 4 working chargers.

    Can also use the eCars at Kiltullagh or Carnmore before you get into Galway so you’re not worrying about finding a charger in the city. I avoid charging in Dublin when possible.

  • Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭eltoastero

    My previous car was the PHEV Golf GTE, loved it, best car to drive that I've ever had. Realistic range of 25km in winter or 35km-40km in summer from an 8kWh battery. That was perfect for most of my day to day, and then no issue when needing to go across the country.

    But, the downsides were that boot was 100L smaller than a petrol Golf....... actually that's my only beef really (it won't take 3 kids but nothing in that segment will).

    What it did was push me into a full EV - I got hooked on the relaxing (but spirited) mechanics of electric driving. I think PHEVs have a place to bridge the gap if you're not comfortable with a full EV (like finding a charger on the other side, or having to learn about charging curves and all the public charge point providers, all the stuff I built up overtime while owning the PHEV and is now second nature).

    As for cost, it costs me under €7 to fully charge my car (77kWh at 9c per kWh). I know that's going up when my fixed rate contract ends next month. That's good for 350km of range in worst case scenarios (motorway in winter) and 450km to 500km on the slower drives in summer.

    I personally don't see the point in buying a non-electrified new car right now (apart from them costing more, but I think the increased depreciation on an ICE car negates the difference in cost now). Second hand ICE - then fire ahead, there's value to be had (as second hand BEV or PHEVs are still hard to come by).

    But do check out the boot on the PHEV version compared to the ICE or BEV equivalent (like the Niro) - there's a sizable reduction which could be a deal breaker)

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin

    I'd kind of second what @eagerv said, I've only used destination charging twice in the past 18 months.

    You tend to adapt by picking places where a destination charger is easily available, like a hotel charger for example. Or if you're staying in a holiday home you can charge using the granny lead

    Then you just move your car when it's fully charged, unless there's other people waiting on the charger.

    Or you just stop for a bit longer to DC charge if you aren't bothered

    I guess it's fair to say that there are gains and trade offs in owning an EV. One of the trade offs is more planning around charging stops, and sometimes going out of your way to charge. I'll say from personal experience there isn't nearly as much involved as some people portray

    On the gains side, no more petrol stations and the associated heart attach when you see the cost of a tank of fuel

    It's up to you whether the gains are worth it. Also, I won't lie, there is a transition time while you get used to the car and you'll be a bit nervous about range until you've gotten past it

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost (Escapist magazine)

  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭MercuryBoy

    For full EVs, what's the projected lifetime of the battery? Could you expect it to be working in 10 years?

  • Registered Users Posts: 63,551 ✭✭✭✭unkel

    Battery will outlive the car, but you do get some degradation / range loss. Roughly about 10-20% after 8-10 years. Pretty much all EVs now have an 8 year warranty on the battery (with some mileage limitation)

  • Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭eltoastero

    Yes, maybe not with the same capacity but I'd be shocked if my battery is less than 90% of what it is now (based on what I've seen with cars with good Battery Management Systems and that I do most of my charging at slower (cooler) AC speeds).

    Most manufacturers give very good warranties on their batteries and their systems, usually around the 7 / 8 years and 160000km of driving (tesla offer 4 years but their batteries would be the ones I worry about least).

    The rest of the car will fall apart before the battery will.

  • Registered Users Posts: 20,387 ✭✭✭✭ELM327

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin

    Yep, although you'll have some degradation in that time

    Modern EVs have a buffer between their total battery capacity and useable capacity to cover any degradation over the lifetime and protect the battery

    They also come with a battery warranty, typically guaranteeing a minimum capacity after 8 years for 160,000km for example

    That doesn't mean the car is useless after that time, just that the battery will continue to degrade

    Most EVs sold in 2012 are still in use today. They've generally been downgraded to local use, but most of them were small battery Leafs and Zoe's so they didn't have a huge amount of range to begin with

    If an ID.4 loses 20% of its range in 10 years, which should be a bit extreme, it still have enough to drive Dublin to Cork

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost (Escapist magazine)

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin

    Just to be clear, you should make your own decisions based on your needs and your budget. There'll also be a waiting time for any new cars, so factor that in

    But I would recommend test driving both a PHEV and EV to see how you find them. Make sure you book ahead to any dealerships you speak to so they have the cars charged and ready to go

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost (Escapist magazine)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,387 ✭✭✭✭ELM327

    A lot of first gen EVs have little to no degradation. It's only the crappy leaf batteries that degrade so bad.

  • Registered Users Posts: 435 ✭✭mc2022B2TF

    PHEV works well if you do lots of short journeys each day but if you are doing regular long journeys (say once a week) i don't understand why anyone would by a PHEV.

    I'd either go with full ICE or BHEV. And if your route has fast charging then literally stopping for 10 minutes will splash and dash you enough to get home or to your destination.

    For me i do the daily kids drop off, gym etc. and about 3 round trips to/from Dublin weekly of about 170km round. Never have to charge at fast chargers and all charging done at home on night rate of €0.079 per kWh. Its literally the dream type of car for me - the cost of running the car is practically free at those energy prices when compared to diesel/petrol.

    Doing a trip to Galway soon - i'll have enough range to get their and destination charge overnight and then get home. With suc's at Athenry, Enfield and CB even if i am stuck for a bit of charge i'll pop in there for 15 mins and away i go. But i will try and avoid any fast charging if i can, if its not needed.

    Plus, i can't drive for more that 90 mins without stopping for a stretch break so i'd be doing that anyway.

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,722 ✭✭✭Old diesel

    At 75 mph a 2 hour drive is 150 miles.

    A modern EV with a battery over 60 kwh can do that non stop.

    Or do you mean 2 hrs each way - ie 300 miles round trip.....

  • Registered Users Posts: 7,629 ✭✭✭whippet

    I have both an BEV and PHEV on my driveway.

    I commute about 130km per day round trip - 90% motorway and I have free charging in the office.

    The BMW 330e on average returns 1.9l/100km over a week - I find the 'adaptive' mode the best for efficiency. I don't really know the EV consumption on that as I don't really check as half the charging is free to me. Then over the weekend's I'd rarely do much driving outside of the normal running around locally.

    The Leaf40 returns about 14kwh/100km on the same commute.

    The PHEV will be as thirsty as any 2l Turbo petrol on longer journeys and the boot space is very very small .. but with two and half years of owner ship and 35,000km on the clock the amount of times i've needed a bigger boot have been minimal and that is what the second car is used for. I did a fairly long driving holiday around Ireland in it last year and with a roof box it was more than ample for the 4 of us.

  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭MercuryBoy

    I live in mainland Europe, in the winter I go up to the mountains which could be a 2-4 hour drive each way, don't really want to be worrying about scrambling for chargers in busy ski resorts etc when i should be enjoying myself...thats my main concern

  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭MercuryBoy

    Looking at this the "real range" of a Kia e-Niro in mild weather is 340km, in cold 265km, still a bit short for me

  • Registered Users Posts: 5,644 ✭✭✭kirving

    • 320i 184hp 53k
    • 330i 245hp 61k
    • 320d 190hp 55k
    • 330e 292hp 53k
    • 320d xdrive 58k
    • 330e xdrive 55k
    • i4 340hp 65k

    A 330e PHEV is the same price as the cheapest ICE version, so it's a no brainer over full ICE if you're in the market for a family BMW.

    Versus an i4, it's €12k cheaper. Admittedly a different driving experience, but the target market is similar for both. To save €12k in fuel over 3 years (at todays rates), you'd need to be doing 50,000km/year, or 140km every day in the i4 to break even, and never once charge the 330e.

    Perhaps an extreme example picking BMW's offerings, but even a Niro PHEV is €4.5k less then than the EV, which is a lot of fuel for the majority of people, with the added complication of planning trips with a family. All of the above is assuming you're buying new of course.

    My brother recently bought a new 40kWh Leaf for €33k. He does low mileage, but when you added up all the costs of motoring over 3 years, the Leaf was about the same TCoO (tax, insurance, 0% finance, few hundred for repairs) as an overprices €22k second hand car. Made total sense for him to go with a Leaf when we ran the numbers.

    Best I've got from my 330e (with a dodgy battery) on a long run was a few weeks ago, Dublin-Galway 4.95l/100km, starting with a full charge (60c or so). Normally between 5.5 and 5.7 though tbh.

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,736 ✭✭✭kanuseeme

  • Registered Users Posts: 10,230 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin

    I don't suppose you could narrow that down slightly? Mainland Europe is a fairly large chunk of land 😁

    If you're west of the German/Polish border then you're grand. The charging networks in western Europe are way better than the Irish networks

    You've got the likes of Ionity and Tesla networks which work across Europe, not to mention loads of local networks which are improving constantly

    If you're thinking about what going up a snowy mountain is like in an EV then I'd suggest looking up a YouTube channel called Bjorn Nyland (Teslabjorn) and look at his Geilo tests

    Here's a good example

    Another forum user recently commented that they'd have no concerns driving from Ireland to Romania in an EV but driving to Connemara would have them p1ssing themselves with fear

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost (Escapist magazine)

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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,629 ✭✭✭whippet

    A decent analysis .. although ... the guide price of the i4 is a little misleading .. I was going to order one during the summer to replace the 330e and by the time I had it quoted and configured it was closer to €73k !! The 330e with MSport Plus pack and a few other extras was €53k new in 2020 .. so it's more a €20k gap like for like