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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,962 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    @Podge_irl

    A majority of Crimea voted for independence of Ukraine in 91.

    And they overwhelmingly voted for greater autonomy away from Ukraine in 1994 too.

    The main point is that there is no comfortable ethnic through line on the peninsula, but the Crimea is a damn sight more Russian that it has ever been Ukrainian, despite where current international recognitions may stand and I can't see Russia or Russians giving up the ghost there even if they are driven from the Ukraine proper.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,796 ✭✭✭greenpilot


    Not at all. The simple truth is, we don't know. Ukraine and NATO intelligence assets are incredibly good at keeping their mouths shut with respect to troop movements, Ukranian losses, aviation operations ( the fact that Ukranian aircraft are still allowed to operate is still a mystery to me. I would have thought that their Forward Operating Bases and subsequent support infrastructure would have been vapourised by cruise missles in the first months of the war) and Special Forces operations. Only NATO and Ukranian commanders really know what's going on. Remember, the West began training and establishing NATO compatible secure Data-links just after the 2014 invasion, turning what was essentially a paramilitary organisation into a NATO-spec, asymmetrical fighting force far removed from what the Russians were used to fighting in Syria and elsewhere. I was in Syria in 2010 and 2009 and I can tell you, even then the infrastructure in every aspect was a shambles well before Russia arrived after the Arab Spring. Russia is fighting Nato-lite and Putin should have known this prior to the invasion. He also knows that if things get out of hand, and NATO have to finally step in, then Russias military will he reduced to a token defence force. Everything that is currently flying, driving or sailing outside of mother Russia will be fair game. I certainly would not like to be a sailor in the Black Sea. Special mention goes to the Starlink system that proved to be invaluable, un-hackable, completely modular and independent of a ground-based network and fits in the backpack of any soldier, running on batteries. I'm not a fan of Musk, the person, but he and his engineers knocked it out of the park with this one!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,917 ✭✭✭GM228


    Yes I understand the rules of interpretation in contracts, treaties and legislation (come to the Legal Discussion thread and you will see that's also an area of my expertise).

    However, the Study on NATO Enlargement is neither a contract, a treaty or a legislative act and so not so strictly construed. It is an accepted framework which establishes the requirements to be met for entrance to NATO, irrespective of how we interpret it, it's hard to get away from the "resolution of such disputes would be a factor in determining whether to invite a state to join the Alliance" stipulation in the Study, it's there for a reason, and a good reason at that.

    there isn't a huge amount of material on the matter, however there is the 1997 US Senate NATO Enlargement debates.

    The Debate on NATO Enlargement, Senate Hearing 105-285 (October 7, 9, 22, 28, 30 and November 5, 1997):-


    Each candidate state is a member of a range of European institutions, including the OSCE and the Council of Europe. The European Union is considering the three countries (and others) as possible candidates for membership, to be formally named at an EU summit in December 1997. NATO and the EU have both required candidate states to settle border and ethnic disputes to qualify for membership.


    To this end, Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic have signed agreements with neighboring states, and the leading political parties in each of the three countries have given strong evidence of dedication to the settlement of ethnic and border disputes.

    Both NATO and the European Union (EU) emphasized that regional disputes must be resolved prior to entry into either institution. In 1996, Hungary ratified basic treaties with Slovakia and Romania that included provisions on ethnic minority rights and the inviolability of frontiers

    Perhaps the US Senate is also wrong?

    More recently the UK Government's Briefing on Sweden and Finland joining NATO also confirmed that a requirement for joining is to meet the requirements of the Study, as does the NATO fact sheet on the matter:-

    https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-9574/CBP-9574.pdf

    https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl2014/assets/pdf/pdf_2016_07/20160627_1607-factsheet-enlargement-eng.pdf

    Post edited by GM228 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭gw80




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,889 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde




    In reality do the people who live in this region that Russia claims want to be part of Russia? Are the people of Lyman celebrating their liberation?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,222 ✭✭✭✭briany


    @greenpilot

    Russia is fighting Nato-lite and Putin should have known this prior to the invasion.

    He should have, but he didn't. How much of that was down to a failure in military intelligence and how much was down to a failure in Putin's sanity will be another one of those things that can be endlessly picked through in historical military documentaries (presuming we don't all get blown up).



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 29,880 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Perhaps the US Senate is also wrong?

    Considering Cyprus joined the EU in 2004 with an extant territorial dispute, yes they are.

    Ukraine could be invited to join NATO tomorrow without changing any of the "rules" because the only actual rule for expansion is that every current member agrees. Whatever your legal arguments, this is the political reality.

    If any individual country wishes, in their own procedure, to give credence to the Study, that is their business but clearly 10 countries have already either disagreed with your interpretation of it or just decided to ignore it. I would suggest for others its at most a mere cover to hide behind. I ultimately think you are mistaking what is a purely political procedure for a legal one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,889 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Seems strange that the only people posing for photos in Lyman are Ukrainian soldiers, and no residents are to be seen anywhere.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,997 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I apologize, then, for telling you what you already know.

    However, I would observe two things.

    1) If it's just a framework, and nothing contractual/treaty involved, then there is no hard obligation to follow it. It becomes merely a process, best practice, or a policy, which can be changed as easily as it was written in the first place: Without any formal agreement or ratification.

    2) With respect to the US Senate quotation, I have no doubt that they are correct that such stipulations were emplaced as conditions to entry for the EU and NATO for the countries at the time. However, that is indicative only of a policy position at the time with regards the prospective members of the time, and whilst precedent is instructive, as you know it is not binding.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    the Sunday times reported from recaptured regions last Sunday and quoted Ukrainian soldiers who said that many civilians had fled with the Russian army and that they were welcomed by around half of those that were left (actual interviews with soldiers…..not some makey-upper twitter commentary). These regions are part of Ukraine but are contested for a reason….because many support Russia. Not 90 something percent, as in the ‘referendum’ but a sizeable number. If the referendum were completely democratic, would most vote for Ukraine? I don’t think anyone knows the answer to that

    Of course that isn’t to say that Ukraine shouldn’t fight for the territory. They are Ukrainian territory. But it’s naive to think that everyone there will be hugging and kissing the Ukrainian soldiers.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 378 ✭✭Slava_Ukraine


    Why would anyone who has lived under the Soviet Union and then had exposure to democracy, with full access to Europe via Schengen, have any desire to be under russian rule?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,268 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    In the west we get a simplistic narrative that most of the populations in the Eastern and southern regions are committed Ukrainians trapped in an open air prison by the Russians but it's much more complicated than that.

    There'll be some places with mostly Ukrainians and others mostly Russian leaning.

    Probably something like Northern Ireland in 1922. To outsiders who are mostly ignorant it looks simple, a country having part of it's territory stolen and annexed.

    Of course, it's not that simple once you get in to the weeds.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 378 ✭✭Slava_Ukraine




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,917 ✭✭✭GM228


    Wasn't Cyprus joining the EU part related to the UNs Annan Plan to try and end the conflict (and obviously it failed to do so)? It certainly wasn't considered the status quo anyway.

    It is also the reason why the EU adopted the Protocol (No. 10) on Cyprus and the Green Line Regulation due to joining as a de facto divided island.

    I never said it was a legal procedure or made any legal arguments to that effect, I acknowledged the Study was the agreed position made by members of NATO and can be changed by concession of all members of NATO and of course that means it is purely political, it is however equally important to note that any change in requirements to be met in joining must be unanimous.

    As noted above I never said it was a legal requirement to join NATO and I never said it was a contract or any sort of treaty requirement, rather as I noted (probably more than once) it was a collectively agreed and published document of the unanimous requirements for membership, any change even for something as simple as policy still requires concession from all states, the requirements for joining NATO are no different, anything else would be contrary to the provisions of the Washington Treaty.

    Post edited by GM228 on


  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I don’t know. But that is what was reportedly the message from Ukrainian soldiers in the retaken regions.

    Crimea is a good example. People living there know what a democratic life is like…..they’ve seen it close up. But many, see themselves as Russian and want to be part of Russia, and have wanted to be separate from Ukraine previously



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭rogber


    I think you're conflating 2 different things.

    Ukraine IS having part of its territory stolen from it. Hopefully not for long. Nobody but pro Putinists can dispute this.

    But you are right that the populations in the east are very split in their allegiances and the comparison to NI is not without validity. Which is why lasting peace, no matter what happens, is probably a long way off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,644 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    The separatists and pro-Putin crowd were utterly stupid to think that their favourite regime violently invading the place and killing their Ukrainian neighbours would ever be any sort of a long term solution to their pro-Russia fantasies. They only need look at what happened to the Sudetenland from 1938 onwards to see that the eventual outcome would probably be disastrous for them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,515 ✭✭✭zv2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,132 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    Talk that Ukraine have advanced 20km today along the road that adjoins the Dnieper in Kherson.

    Would be significant if true given what's happened so far in Kherson.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,641 ✭✭✭rogber


    It's like when America went to Afghanistan and Iraq. They just couldn't understand why "freedom and democracy" weren't universally embraced. But some people, rightly or wrongly, have other values that matter more to them (ethnic, religious, national) and will cling to them even if from the outside it seems like a self destructive decision



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,515 ✭✭✭zv2


    As I understand it this issue is complicated by the conflict since 2014. Perhaps some want to join Russia to get out of the conflict in E. Ukraine. If there was no conflict would they prefer Ukraine? The irony is, the Russians created this conflict in the first place by using Yanukovych as a sh1t stirrer and creating the Donbas armies. You'd have to go back to 2010 maybe, to get people's real preferences on this.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,439 ✭✭✭Field east


    They are waiting for the champs to arrive before they start. After all , one needs only the best to celebrate such a victory. What such a naive and inappropriate question to ask. Get up the yard will you and don’t be annoying us with your attempt at deflection , etc, etc, etc, etc ,etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,132 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,917 ✭✭✭GM228




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Thirty years ago and not by a large margin. A lot can change in thirty years. Thirty years ago Ireland had no divorce, being Gay was a criminal offence, never mind abortion or same sex marriage. IMHO wheeling out the Crimea vote of 91 is damned near pointless and as was pointed out by Tony looked for more autonomy in 94. Now and certainly after the 2014 annexation I'd be shocked if a true vote was carried out that they'd want back into Ukraine. Indeed if Russia wasn't a pathological liar to the marrow and saw that as the default the one area they might well risk an actual internationally examined above board vote is Crimea.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,053 ✭✭✭Polar101


    There has been a few rumours about that all right. On the 1420 Youtube channel, they interviewed someone who said soldiers are expected to pay about $1500 to get a uniform and other equipment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,660 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Ukraine should create an autonomous region there for the Tartars and welcome back anyone of Tartar descent. The Russians could be repatriated to Russia where they were originally from.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,656 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    Rumour is getting louder.



    Not sure how many defensive lines that is but looks like they've certainly broken through two.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    That makes Ukraine before all this sound closer to Belgium than Belarus and the contrast was that large. It wasn't on both counts. What democracy Ukraine has is less than a decade old, Russia's had pretty much none. It was one of the poorest and most corrupt nations in Europe with a hot and cold civil war in the east and a fair chunk of those in said east did see Russia as the direction they wanted to go. You can't have nigh on a decade of internecine conflict resulting in many thousands killed and injured and many thousands more displaced fighting mirages or non existent leanings. Yes Moscow's support was in play, but so was Kyiv's. All of this was regularly noted and reported on in Western media until this invasion, though mostly in the back pages because it was pretty much Nowheresvile on most Western people's radars. They were certainly trying to change and people wanted change but Ukraine had some way to go.

    As far as democracy goes IMHO it's not a good fit for much of the Russian mindset(not unlike many Middle Eastern cultures). They've never really had it in the way we think of it. It's essentially an old style feudal imperial nation where the good times equal no societal chaos and a centralised "strong" leader with his governors dropping more than the usual scraps from the table to the rest of the population. Ukraine was in that sphere for a long time too, but there's much more hope for them. Ditto for Belarus.

    It's been my position since early on in this thread that this tragedy will be the making of a modern Ukraine as a nation. They're getting huge support from the West and a lot of goodwill and their people can see how they're fighting for their own land and autonomy. They'll have no stomach for the corruption of the past and neither will those who support them.

    Yet another failure for putin to add to his long list. A better Ukraine on his doorstep, more NATO on the same doorstep, an awakened EU who will spend more on defence and won't look to Russia for a generation and Western business and political interests who won't be too quick to deal with them either.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,597 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Looks like it true. Ukrainian soldiers with the Ukraine flag in the Khreshchenivka village, Kherson front.

    FeFWuZNWYAAKZg5.jpeg


    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



This discussion has been closed.
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