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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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Comments

  • Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Amnesty holding both sides to the same standard

    I presume Ukraine were launching an invasion of another country from those areas documented by Amnesty and not defending their country from invasion?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Do you believe that defending territory gives you permission to ignore Article 8 on definition of war crimes?




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,507 ✭✭✭zv2


    He murdered his way to power and is still murdering.

    Post edited by zv2 on

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    I would be embarrassed linking to un and war crimes at this stage. Did amnesty ask the Ukrainian civilians if they had a problem with the troops and weapons ? Should cities villages towns remain unguarded let invaders just roll in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    You might want to give brief explanation of where Ukraine breached article 8, while also defending Russia for witdrawing from various protocols of the Geneva convention.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    They should send that Article to a certain embassy. I wager I would be able to hear their laughter from here. Only one group committing war crimes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,061 ✭✭✭jackboy


    There was a military expert on TV yesterday who said that the Russians were firing artillery from the nuclear plant area. The Ukrainians fired back to take out the Russian artillery. That’s how the plant was hit.



  • Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Do you believe defending your territory using whatever means you can is the "same standard" as a brutal invasion of another country with indiscriminate shelling and bombing of residential areas?

    This is not a war over disputed territory, it is an invasion of a soverign state. "Same Standard" does not in any way apply. But even so, how many of the below are vbeing breached by either side, if we want to look at the "same standard". For comparison purposes I have highlighted those that have definitively been breached by the invaders. But but, you know, both sides

    For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:

    1. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:
      1. Wilful killing
      2. Torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments;
      3. Wilfully causing great suffering, or serious injury to body or health;
      4. Extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly;
      5. Compelling a prisoner of war or other protected person to serve in the forces of a hostile Power;
      6. Wilfully depriving a prisoner of war or other protected person of the rights of fair and regular trial;
      7. Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement;
      8. Taking of hostages.
    2. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:
      1. Intentionally directing attacks against the civilian population as such or against individual civilians not taking direct part in hostilities;
      2. Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects, that is, objects which are not military objectives;
      3. Intentionally directing attacks against personnel, installations, material, units or vehicles involved in a humanitarian assistance or peacekeeping mission in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as long as they are entitled to the protection given to civilians or civilian objects under the international law of armed conflict;
      4. Intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated;
      5. Attacking or bombarding, by whatever means, towns, villages, dwellings or buildings which are undefended and which are not military objectives;
      6. Killing or wounding a combatant who, having laid down his arms or having no longer means of defence, has surrendered at discretion;
      7. Making improper use of a flag of truce, of the flag or of the military insignia and uniform of the enemy or of the United Nations, as well as of the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions, resulting in death or serious personal injury;
      8. The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;
      9. Intentionally directing attacks against buildings dedicated to religion, education, art, science or charitable purposes, historic monuments, hospitals and places where the sick and wounded are collected, provided they are not military objectives;
      10. Subjecting persons who are in the power of an adverse party to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are neither justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the person concerned nor carried out in his or her interest, and which cause death to or seriously endanger the health of such person or persons;
      11. Killing or wounding treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army;
      12. Declaring that no quarter will be given;
      13. Destroying or seizing the enemy's property unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war;
      14. Declaring abolished, suspended or inadmissible in a court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party;
      15. Compelling the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country, even if they were in the belligerent's service before the commencement of the war;
      16. Pillaging a town or place, even when taken by assault;
      17. Employing poison or poisoned weapons;
      18. Employing asphyxiating, poisonous or other gases, and all analogous liquids, materials or devices;
      19. Employing bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core or is pierced with incisions;
      20. Employing weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare which are of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering or which are inherently indiscriminate in violation of the international law of armed conflict, provided that such weapons, projectiles and material and methods of warfare are the subject of a comprehensive prohibition and are included in an annex to this Statute, by an amendment in accordance with the relevant provisions set forth in articles 121 and 123;
      21. Committing outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
      22. Committing rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, as defined in article 7, paragraph 2 (f), enforced sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence also constituting a grave breach of the Geneva Conventions;
      23. Utilizing the presence of a civilian or other protected person to render certain points, areas or military forces immune from military operations;
      24. Intentionally directing attacks against buildings, material, medical units and transport, and personnel using the distinctive emblems of the Geneva Conventions in conformity with international law;
      25. Intentionally using starvation of civilians as a method of warfare by depriving them of objects indispensable to their survival, including wilfully impeding relief supplies as provided for under the Geneva Conventions;
      26. Conscripting or enlisting children under the age of fifteen years into the national armed forces or using them to participate actively in hostilities.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,172 ✭✭✭deadduck


    i couldn't understand why they would be shelling a plant they 100% control either, but then it was mentioned that they are shelling the outgoing powerlines in an extremely crude method of disconnecting the plant from the main Ukraine grid, with a view to reconnecting it to Russia/Russian occupied territory. seems nuts, but given they haven't shown themselves the brightest bunch, i think it's quite possible

    edit: a link to at least one article regarding the above: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-says-russian-shelling-hit-power-line-nuclear-power-plant-2022-08-05/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Everyone knows that Russia has committed loads of war crimes, there is no dispute about that.

    But the fact that Russia has done bad things does not absolve the Ukrainians from doing similar bad things.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Odd that amnesty has back peddled on it though don't you think ? Resignations the whole shebang. I could be wrong But Not monitoring the UN much, Not a peep out of them about this ? Stand to be corrected ofc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    The people both siding the amnesty report are really not taking into account the context the damage this report has done.

    For a start it has played a blinder for Russian propaganda. Yes you could say amnesty has criticised Russia too on several occasions, but where do you hear about this in the media? you have to actively seek out these reports criticising Russia. Russia dont care about the criticism against them, but them will damn well use the report against Ukraine as much as possible too push their propaganda.

    So the report criticises weapons being near civilian populations, would they prefer ukraine to leave them all out in an open field for Russia to target and destroy?

    Where is the amnesty report against gaza or Palestinian insurgents who have far more blatantly put civilians in harms way?

    Also their are questions about some of the sources they used to make up this report, talk of Russia hand picking witnesses to make up this report, although this talk as far as I can see has not been bourne out by any evidence as of yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Yes you could say amnesty has criticised Russia too on several occasions, but where do you hear about this in the media? you have to actively seek out these reports criticising Russia.

    Eh? are you living under a rock?

    Every day there are articles about russian warcrimes in western media. Its headline news for months about the latest russian attack etc, russian warcrimes, bucha, mariupol, vinnytsia, etc etc.

    Do you live in a cabin in the woods?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Amnesty must. They must have said a lot of things about this have you a link ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,507 ✭✭✭zv2


    They could shell the plant purely for the purpose of blaming the Ukrainians. False flag operation.

    It looks like history is starting up again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,651 ✭✭✭Cordell


    Russia doesn't care about Amnesty and what they say about them. They just want less support for Ukraine and if this means they need to go to an organization which they otherwise despise then that's what they'll do. It's not a delusion, I just know them better.



  • Posts: 10,049 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What is a defending army supposed to do when under threat? Gather in the middle of a field for annihilation? No war crimes at all would exist without the illegal and immoral invasion.

    Now can you tell how Ukraine could even attempt to mount a defense and protect their citizens against the tactics employed by Russia without deploying forces in built up areas?

    If this was to move from an invasion to occupation at some point, and the remnants of the Ukrainian military and civilian supporters mounted an insurgency, many of you guys would still be both sidesing and probably referring to insurgents as terrorists



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,749 ✭✭✭firemansam4


    Ehh the point I was making completely flew over your head.

    Where is all the media hype over the amnesty criticisms of Russia?

    Russia at this stage dont care about reports criticising them. This report agaisnt Ukraine has been massive news and is like a big gift wrapped up and delivered to Putin and his army of social media trolls ready to discredit Ukraine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,274 ✭✭✭EOQRTL


    So the Russian's aren't shelling the nuclear plant then. Why is the media telling us they are?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Of course

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/07/ukraine-russian-soldiers-filmed-viciously-attacking-ukrainian-pow-must-face-justice/

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/07/ukraine-civilians-killed-by-reckless-russian-attacks-on-serhiivka-apartment-block-and-beach-resort/

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/06/ukraine-russia-death-sentences-against-three-foreign-members-of-ukrainian-forces-by-separatists-courts-a-blatant-violation-of-international-law/

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/03/everything-is-on-fire-one-month-since-the-russian-invasion-of-ukraine/

    And this is just a small snapshot of the publications Amnesty have against Russia. Their own website archive has over 400. The above are just some of the publications theyve made this year.

    But sure Amnesty never call out the Russians right? All a big conspiracy by the Russians to undermine Ukraine?

    Some of the stuff in this thread belongs in conspiracy theories, its bonkers. Russians somehow infiltrate Amnesty (after banning them from their soil) to make them publish one piece calling out Ukrainian endangering civilians, and yet the Russians were happy to let Amnesty publish hundreds of factual anti-Russian articles detailing their war crimes.. lol



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    They could continue to use evacuated commercial and industrial regions as bases, as they have in large parts of the country.

    Setting up bases, mortars, howitzers, AA, all in residential areas is a war crime, as there is no reason to do so other than to try and make your own position less likely to be struck for the fear of civilians being injured. Its no different to the Russians using the NPP in Energodar as a firing position.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Anti russian you say.. Seems an odd choice of words.


    Untitled Image




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    Must let all the military minds in NATO, USA, UK. Never to prepare for street to street fighting in urban areas. I have a Mad Idea Imagine the Enemy does not want to fight around the new bases you put up ? 🤔 Could just go round and turn another city to dust with artillery.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,062 ✭✭✭Sweet.Science


    I'd still prefer to lay the blame on the people doing the bombing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    "factual anti-russian" is the full quote, i.e. its correct and justified. Dont let that stop you from checking for reds under the bed though!

    So is it Ukraine fault for bombing the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant, even though the Russians have set up firing positions there? After all you prefer to blame the people doing the bombing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Hi Timmy

    You were getting back to me on what articles of the Geneve convention that Ukraine have violated, yeah?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭xxxxxxl


    There are no Reds under my bed The USSR no longer exists. Well in some people's minds it does. Can't think whos though. 🤔 I have no idea why you say Anti Russian there is no reason to say that. It's not Anti Russian to point out facts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,639 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    But its Anti-Ukrainian for Amnesty to point out facts about their conduct?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,489 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    Lots of articles but I don't see a report.

    Articles report facts and an actual report comes to a conclusion. The Amnesty report about Ukraine came to all the wrong conclusions.

    They never once took into consideration that Ukraine is defending itself, that's a massive omission. Yes Ukraine placed artillery in built up areas (after trying to help evacuate civilians) to defend the area. They didn't do it to turn them into human shields, which is exactly what Russia has done and continues to do.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,388 ✭✭✭paul71


    Its not all wind, Sweden and Norways export are hydro.

    What makes up the difference? Russian Gas, and that is the point I have been making all along.

    We can from our temperate zone mild wintered little island act the high mighty keyboard warriors in comfort and lecture Germans, Czechs, Estonians, Slovaks, Austrians about sending money to Russia. The consequences for us when Russian Gas is cut off is a few rolling power cuts when we might get a couple of nights of -2, the consequences of severe power cuts north of the Alps are 10s of millions living through weeks or months of nights of -10 to -20 with no heating.



This discussion has been closed.
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