Ukrainian refugees in Ireland - Megathread

The only "counterargument" I've seen from you (and others with the same view) is emotive guff about "doing our part" and nonsensical inferences about begrudgery and how we're all big xenophobic racists if we don't agree with supporting these poor "refugees"/economic migrants, and completely ignoring or dismissing the entirely reasonable points put to you and others in this thread.

Let me be very clear...

Charity is only of use to anyone if it's sustainable, planned, and has an endgame outcome for those receiving it - thus far we have seen none of this in regards to the current free for all around our Ukranian response.

We absolutely HAVE seen a worsening of the situation for the Ukranians who have arrived here in the last few months, and knock on negative effects for the same services that the natives and EU citizens here rely on, depend on, and are entitled to (through virtue of birth, citizenship and/or tax paying contributions) expect to be able to avail of when they need them. This is not in dispute. It's been covered extensively in the media as this has progressed.

We have also seen a rise in concern among those same natives and citizens regarding the numbers arriving, the supports being offered, and the lack of an upper limit given the impact this response is already having. This again is not in dispute. The recent IT poll result shows that a majority favour better controls and limits being established - for the benefit of not just them, but the new arrivals themselves.

It is also not begrudgery, xenophobia, racism or any other such term to have and express these concerns, or to be more concerned about the longer term impact of these measures on our country and its ability to provide for and support its citizens.

It is not begrudgery or whatever to be concerned about what this will mean in terms of being able to access essential supports such as school places, college accommodation, GP access, social housing or housing in general, or any other core service that people rely on.

It is not wrong for natives and citizens to be concerned about the impact of these things on themselves and their families.

It is not wrong to ask what the impact of large influxes of people with no link to our country or culture beyond financial dependency will be on particularly smaller rural communities, now and in the future.

The nonsensical notion that people we are not even doing basic checks on will all be an asset to their new environments is exactly that - nonsense. The truth is that we don't know who we're welcoming into our localities and in some cases, homes. Some will indeed be an asset absolutely, but many will not for a variety of reasons, and it'll be those communities who will be expected to deal with the fallout.

It is not wrong to question what agenda the Government is following here given the clear and substantially negative impact these policies are having - both to the new arrivals themselves, and to the rest of us.

It is not wrong to be more concerned about all of these things over and above virtue signalling, emotional blackmail and attacks towards anyone who questions any of this.

Simply put... And again I will be very clear...

Charity begins at home. We have more than enough significant and long standing problems right here that successive Governments have failed to address and indeed claimed that they couldn't do so quickly.

We have absolutely every right to question why then such extraordinary efforts have been made to respond to this issue by Government, especially as these efforts are at the cost - directly and indirectly - to the citizens and taxpayers of this country .

We are not responsible for and have no stake in this conflict between Russia and a non-EU nation beyond the aforementioned charitable contributions (within sustainable limits), and condemnation of Russia's actions.

We are under absolutely no moral or legal obligation to put the needs of these people ahead of our own needs (because that is the point we have now reached).

And finally, and personally, I am absolutely far more concerned about the longer term impacts this misadventure will have on my 10 year old son's ability to get a place in a good school, or college, what kind of job prospects will await him, what sort of country and political and economic state will he inherit. These things are less than a decade away for him, and what we are doing today will still be felt long into the future.

I make zero apologies for that. He has a right to expect to grow up in a country where he has the opportunity to learn, work, live, and succeed, and he has absolutely MORE of a right to that than any refugee or economic migrant that lands at the door so accusations of -ists and - isms are completely wasted on me I'm afraid.

It's as simple as that, and all the virtue signalling and name calling in the world won't change that reality.

You've clearly misunderstood or are deliberately misinterpreting the charity point, so I'll clarify for you.

Charity begins at home means that if the State has additional resources to spend on those who are in need, then those resources should go to addressing the issues faced by natives and citizens first and foremost. That includes at a minimum ensuring that everyone has a roof over their head, food in their belly, access to essential medical care, and access to other support services to allow them to ultimately better their own situation.

After that, absolutely should we provide aid to others in need - but only insofar as is economically sustainable, and without compromising the services and supports to the group above. This also does not mean bringing people to Ireland to do this, and it's worth remembering our huge expenditure on foreign aid which even through the recession stood at 650 million euro annually.

In short, Ireland - it's Government and people - does more than enough to support the needy and vulnerable of the world. We do arguably more than we should given our population size, and the fact that we are NOT fully able to address the needs I referred to above - to say nothing of the huge problems faced by those who don't qualify for supports but yet are not able to fully provide for themselves either without compromising on essentials.

The only thing your CSO data above shows is that these already compromised services will be further stretched by the demands placed on them as a result of this open door policy. That benefits no one - not the staff involved, not the natives and citizens who are reliant on them, and certainly not the new arrivals themselves.

The choice then becomes one of who is served first, and as above, it should not be those who were born here or who are here as legal citizens who lose out in favour of what is increasingly becoming obvious are economic migrants and chancers who are compromising the ability to support their own countrymen already here and who do need whatever resources (again within sustainable limits) we DO have to offer.

It is not Ireland’s role to save or resettle all the people of the world who are facing persecution or who want a better life. That's not realistic in any sense and we are already seeing the massively negative effects that taking on even 40, 000 is having here. We can only do so much and that absolutely needs to be recognised.

As for your other point. That may be fine if you place no value on the idea of nations, citizens, culture and the social contract between them but it goes against pretty much every historical milestone and societal concept we have.

The idea of multiculturalism certainly devalues all of these things in favour of a happy notion of a big melting pot where everyone is the same, and no distinction is made between borders or nationality - but again, this is not the case and anywhere it has been attempted (and we can see it throughout Europe including our nearest neighbours), it has in fact resulted in more division and social and economic issues. This is empirical fact.

As a native citizen and taxpayer, who pays his way, follows the rules, and who gets very little in return for it (another problem in our current system), the MINIMUM I expect is that my son will have access to the supports, services, and opportunities he needs to build a life for himself and maybe his own family in this country as an Irish native and citizen. That is a fundamental element of the social contract and one I make no apology for.

You may place no value on these things, but I dare say you're in the minority with that view.

I'll take this then as proof that you in fact HAVE no counterargument, no answer to how the challenges I called out should be addressed, no solution for the problems we already face, let alone those we've now taken on.

It's a common issue with the superficial "we have to do more... coz" attitude. It expects things to just magically happen or work itself out but with no real thought or plan as to how that might happen.

Unfortunately, the real world doesn't work like that!

Enjoy your day.