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Traffic calming ramp or pedestrian crossing?

  • 26-07-2022 12:06pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 632 ✭✭✭


    This is an example of some road markings that I am coming across quite often these days. I presume it's for traffic calming, but drivers (including myself) generally treat it as a pedestrian crossing and stop if someone steps on to the road from the side.


    The question is, is it technically such a crossing and are drivers and cyclists required to stop if there's a pedestrian waiting to cross?!! It seems to me like it's intended to be a zebra crossing but without the usual markings and lights.



Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    It is an uncontrolled crossing but it is laid out wrong.

    An uncontrolled crossing, may or may not include a ramp. If there is a ramp then there must be the traingular shark's teeth. But an uncontrolled crossing must not have pedestrian lines, ie the parralell lines crossing the road. Pedestrian lines must be used only at zebra and pelican/puffin crossings.

    What is pictured there is something that is seen far too often. A confusing mix of both which leads to ambiguity over who has priority. And that confusion and misinterpretation leads to the potential for accidents to happen.

    Hard to tell but it also appears to be set in from the junction, away from the desire line where people will want to cross the side road.

    If that is on a public road you should complain to the council about it. If it is in a private development, complain to the management of the development.

    It is a bad setup there.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    it's what's sometimes referred to as a courtesy crossing - you're not obliged to stop. (TBH the rules of the road are vague on Zebra crossings as well - you don't have to stop for someone waiting, only if they're already crossing; but AFAIK a pedestrian crossing the road has priority regardless of where they're crossing, which is obvious, you can't just mow them down if you have time and space to stop).

    Councils don't like putting in zebra crossings as legally in Ireland they have to have the flashing beacons which makes them very expensive to install.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 259 ✭✭DaBluBoi


    May I ask where you took this photo? Dont think I've seen those before...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Escapees


    Pic was taken in Galway city, where there's at least a few like that shown...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 632 ✭✭✭Escapees


    As another poster said, the markings do cause confusion. But this in reality probably leads to everyone being more cautious which mightn't be a bad thing!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,336 ✭✭✭jasonb


    Have seen these in Naas as well and wondered about whether they were a pedestrian crossing or not. I've seen a few of them, always on ramps like that.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    yep, as i understand it a pedestrian crossing only grants a pedestrian right of way once they've stepped out into the road, which makes them effectively meaningless from a legal point of view.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Around my area there's a good few of these, they are set back about 5m from junctions. They don't cause any confusion because they are ignored by both pedestrians and road users, not that many pedestrians even check for traffic when crossing the road (regardless of they having right of way or not they'll be dead right with the some of the road-users around my area)



  • Registered Users Posts: 933 ✭✭✭alentejo


    Flashing lights which are expensive to install? In Dublin, DCC have no issue placing traffic lights every 5 yards - would much perfer zebra crossings



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    Try getting around Dungarvan without going over one of these things.

    The council is besotted with them any excuse and in one goes.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    probably because of all the cycle tourism there i assume? e.g. in the above, it provides a means of crossing the road with no drop to or hop up from the road over a kerb.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,483 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    IIRC it's DCC policy not to install zebra crossings, as too many motorists don't adhere to them. So it's actually motorist behaviour that has led to more lights (and also less flashing ambers at pedestrian lights).

    Post edited by Macy0161 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,487 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    The one in the OP's photo has those tactile paving slabs at each side which would lend it more of an official status as a crossing than the ones around my area, example below ...

    There are also no white lines in this example but it is well used as a crossing as to the left two paths crossing the green area meet and on the other side is a local shop.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    here's what the ROTR says, though I think the same would apply to any area where pedestrians decide to cross, i.e. anywhere:




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    and 'should' carries no legal weight, it's a 'we'd like if you would' instruction.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Funnily enough I was only wondering exactly this today!

    These sort of "crossings" are all over Phoenix Park. I was surprised when a Taxi driver came to a full stop at one for me, I had assumed they aren't zebra crossings and that he didn't need to stop (being closer to the crossing then I was).



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    A lot of the pedestrian crossings in the Phoenix Park are dodgy from a motorist perspective. It's far better to err on the side of caution there and just stop when you see someone waiting at them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,230 ✭✭✭TheRiverman


    Anyone familiar with the ruination of Church Street in Athlone have to put up with those crossings. Disgraceful what has been done to that street.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    A "zebra crossing" without beacons is a not a zebra crossing in the legal sense. A zebra crossing is a very specific arrangement consisting of four things

    1. parallel pedestrian lines crossing the road
    2. alternating black and white bands between the lines
    3. zig-zag lines on the approach
    4. flashing amber beacons

    If any of those are missing it is not a Sign Regulations compliant zebra crossing and the pedestrian therefore does not have priority.

    However, you see all sorts of mickey mouse ad-hoc arrangements on crossings, particularly older ones, with some features missing. Or a pelican crossing with red-amber-green lights but with zebra markings.

    You see a lot of off-standard stuff in private developments, but you see it on public council owned roads too - there are some council's that really have a problem with off standard signage and road markings. It is a massive liability issue in my view as if an accident happens it gives the insurers an opening to offload some liability onto the council because the road layout was ambiguous and confusing and open to misinterpretation.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    Can argue over it till the cows come home, but it doesn't matter either way really. A pedestrian on the road always has priority.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    Thats perfectly true but I do think the placement and increasing number of these speed ramps/crossings is worth debating?

    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,009 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    There's one of those crossings beside my house. It works reasonably well. About half of motorists will stop and treat it like a zebra crossing even without putting a foot on the street. Most of the rest will stop once a foot is put out.

    (A minor irritant though are the boy racers with lowered suspension and tampered exhausts who have to slow almost to a stop to get over the ramp with the excessively noisy acceleration following. Not such an issue during the day but unpleasant in the dead of night).



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    wasn't there a story in the media about 5 years ago about some boy racer claiming he'd been trapped by those? they'd been put up around the town he lived in and his car couldn't make it over them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,009 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Limerick I think it was. IIRC he had a lowered Passat but claimed it was 'standard'. The top-end super cars have a feature which raises the car a few inches to get over such ramps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Hate these things, then the white paint wears off because the council are too starved to maintain them and they become next to invisible at night.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,104 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I was in France recently and they have zebra crossings everywhere but they don't have the requirement for flashing beacons. Every junction has crossings on every arm and villages will have multiple crossings along their main streets. They're pretty well obeyed by drivers in my experience. Any area with a lot of pedestrian traffic is usually a 30 zone as well.

    I'd rather see similar here than these meaningless "courtesy" crossings - I'd also like to see us state explicitly, as they've done in the UK recently, that pedestrians crossing a side road have priority over cars turning into that road. We need to move from an attitude that pedestrians have to stay out of cars' way, to drivers having to take responsibility for pedestrian safety.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    it certainly would be a more modern and enllightened direction to take the road traffic laws, but it would require a near complete re-do of the Road Traffic Acts and Regulations.

    It would be no harm to have a consolidation of the Acts and Regs anway from an administrative point of view as the current RTAs and the Regulations are a littany of piecemeal legislation going back to the 60s. It is a nightmare to navigate through.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,984 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I do think they are a great from a pedestrian and cyclists perspective. They are much easier to cross if you are a wheelchair user, pushing a buggy, cycling or just have restricted movement. Also good to slow cars down.

    It is just the uncertainty around it that is off putting. I agree completely with what loyatemu is saying, just make them zebra crossings and remove the uncertainty. And yes, I agree we should change the law to remove the requirement that Zebra crossings need to have flashing lights, it really isn't necessary in most cases, they don't have lights in most of mainland Europe and they work fine there. The requirement for lights just means less Zebra crossings are installed, which leaves pedestrians in a more dangerous situation.

    A good example of over-engineering something for "safety" which leads to it being used less and thus leads to an overall less safe environment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,079 ✭✭✭Rawr


    Uncontrolled crossings are sort of the norm over here in Scandinavia and often take the form of a large speed ramp as described here. You usually know you are coming up to one when you see this:

    The rules are also quite strict, there are no "should"s here. If there is a pedestrian on the crossing, or there's one about to cross, you must stop.

    No need for flashing lolipops on thus setup, just a large blue sign clearly placed on each side of the crossing.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    While I tend to agree I have seen some issues with all these new raised crossings particularly those near or connected to a cycle way.

    The old dropped curb made it necessary for cyclists to dismount and so stop before crossing. Now and I've seen this a few times some cyclists don't stop or even look before sailing across in front of traffic.

    I look at it this way. The ramp is there to slow me in a car down for cyclists etc but there is now nothing to physically slow the cyclists down and remind them they are crossing a road.

    I slow ready to stop near these crossings and regularly stop for anyone that looks like they might be thinking of crossing but one very minor third world issue that boils my piss is stopping for a cyclist who then uses the crossing as a means to stop traffic and then drive off down the road.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,475 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    So the cyclists can more easily cross from one footpath they're not allowed to be on, to another footpath they're not allowed to be on?

    Scrap the cap!



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that roundabout in that picture is on the shandon roundabout on the N25; in a town which is attracting cycle tourists of all ages. do you think all cyclists should use the road? i.e. do you think the infrastructure is adequate?

    https://www.google.com/maps/@52.0935478,-7.6225177,3a,75y,201.65h,86.5t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s65301SYTat5YnY2syGhx-g!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3D65301SYTat5YnY2syGhx-g%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D306.6767%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,475 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I think they and everyone else should obey the rules of the road.

    Pedestrians must not be ignored, just because motorists often sh!t on cyclists is no excuse for cyclists to sh!t on pedestrians.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    do you think the infrastructure is adequate?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,874 ✭✭✭zg3409


    I don't like zebra crossings. It encourages the pedestrians to assume cars will realise they intend crossing and know they are going to cross.

    Like mentioned I have seen cyclists go from footpath to crossing without checking. In one case I was a passanger in a car that had to stand in brakes as cyclist suddenly turned to cross zebra crossing.

    I much prefer a traffic light controlled crossing away from junctions. However I would prefer if they went quickly to red when button pressed, rather than linked to nearby junction lights where they let cars go for ages making pedestrian wait and consider running across. I know at peak times these crossings delay traffic but at non peak times pedestrians should get immediate priority.

    The OP crossings are not very clear and pedestrians and motorists get confused. At night they are hard to see, and sometimes there is parking spaces both sides meaning pedestrians cannot be seen staring to cross. A red light is far clearer and tends to be obeyed by cars. However as said costs of putting in traffic lights and maintaining them may mean they are not used.

    I always watch like a hawk but it's very hard to tell if a pedestrian or cyclist on a path intends crossing shortly. The red light adds a tiny delay and confirms the intention of the person crossing. I would like to see statistics on road deaths and crossing types. I know in my town a new junction was not made a roundabout instead it was made a signal controlled junction with pedestrian crossings everywhere, it is safer but by God for motorists it creates delays that never existed when there was no traffic lights there at all. When car junction traffic lights are broken often traffic moves far better.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    If the roads just had multiple bumps so pedestrians can cross easily without fear, we wouldn't need traffic lights. And stopping would be a rare need on a straight road as you'd see the pedestrian and be already going slow enough to time your approach



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,087 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    So cyclists can't see the black and white strips on the road or flashing orange beacons? Of course they can and they have to stop for pedestrians on a zebra crossing like any other road traffic.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    a cyclist going full tilt should be able to stop their bike within the distance visible to them. that's a no-brainer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,475 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Is that supposed to be an excuse to scare the shít out of elderly pedestrians on what is supposed to be a space which is safe for them?

    Scrap the cap!



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,167 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i am asking you if you think the current infrastructure is safe for a ten year old to use, for example. you're conflating the point i'm clearly trying to make with 'scaring the **** out of elderly pedestrians' so i suspect we're coming at this from different approaches which will be difficult to reconcile.

    (that's a polite way of me saying you're strawmanning my argument)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,475 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    It's not strawmanning to point out that a footpath is a space for feet.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,287 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    To repeat MB's question, all things remaining equal, would you allow a ten year old to cycle on the road or what would you advise?



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