Traffic calming ramp or pedestrian crossing?

Escapees

This is an example of some road markings that I am coming across quite often these days. I presume it's for traffic calming, but drivers (including myself) generally treat it as a pedestrian crossing and stop if someone steps on to the road from the side.

The question is, is it technically such a crossing and are drivers and cyclists required to stop if there's a pedestrian waiting to cross?!! It seems to me like it's intended to be a zebra crossing but without the usual markings and lights.

CreadanLady

It is an uncontrolled crossing but it is laid out wrong.

An uncontrolled crossing, may or may not include a ramp. If there is a ramp then there must be the traingular shark's teeth. But an uncontrolled crossing must not have pedestrian lines, ie the parralell lines crossing the road. Pedestrian lines must be used only at zebra and pelican/puffin crossings.

What is pictured there is something that is seen far too often. A confusing mix of both which leads to ambiguity over who has priority. And that confusion and misinterpretation leads to the potential for accidents to happen.

Hard to tell but it also appears to be set in from the junction, away from the desire line where people will want to cross the side road.

If that is on a public road you should complain to the council about it. If it is in a private development, complain to the management of the development.

It is a bad setup there.

loyatemu

it's what's sometimes referred to as a courtesy crossing - you're not obliged to stop. (TBH the rules of the road are vague on Zebra crossings as well - you don't have to stop for someone waiting, only if they're already crossing; but AFAIK a pedestrian crossing the road has priority regardless of where they're crossing, which is obvious, you can't just mow them down if you have time and space to stop).

Councils don't like putting in zebra crossings as legally in Ireland they have to have the flashing beacons which makes them very expensive to install.

DaBluBoi

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256131/traffic-calming-ramp-or-pedestrian-crossing

May I ask where you took this photo? Dont think I've seen those before...

Escapees

Pic was taken in Galway city, where there's at least a few like that shown...

Escapees

As another poster said, the markings do cause confusion. But this in reality probably leads to everyone being more cautious which mightn't be a bad thing!

jasonb

Have seen these in Naas as well and wondered about whether they were a pedestrian crossing or not. I've seen a few of them, always on ramps like that.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388928#Comment_119388928

yep, as i understand it a pedestrian crossing only grants a pedestrian right of way once they've stepped out into the road, which makes them effectively meaningless from a legal point of view.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389224#Comment_119389224

Around my area there's a good few of these, they are set back about 5m from junctions. They don't cause any confusion because they are ignored by both pedestrians and road users, not that many pedestrians even check for traffic when crossing the road (regardless of they having right of way or not they'll be dead right with the some of the road-users around my area)

alentejo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388928#Comment_119388928

Flashing lights which are expensive to install? In Dublin, DCC have no issue placing traffic lights every 5 yards - would much perfer zebra crossings

The Continental Op

Try getting around Dungarvan without going over one of these things.

The council is besotted with them any excuse and in one goes.

magicbastarder

probably because of all the cycle tourism there i assume? e.g. in the above, it provides a means of crossing the road with no drop to or hop up from the road over a kerb.

Macy0161

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391482#Comment_119391482

IIRC it's DCC policy not to install zebra crossings, as too many motorists don't adhere to them. So it's actually motorist behaviour that has led to more lights (and also less flashing ambers at pedestrian lights).

Alun

The one in the OP's photo has those tactile paving slabs at each side which would lend it more of an official status as a crossing than the ones around my area, example below ...

There are also no white lines in this example but it is well used as a crossing as to the left two paths crossing the green area meet and on the other side is a local shop.

loyatemu

here's what the ROTR says, though I think the same would apply to any area where pedestrians decide to cross, i.e. anywhere:

magicbastarder

and 'should' carries no legal weight, it's a 'we'd like if you would' instruction.

bk

Funnily enough I was only wondering exactly this today!

These sort of "crossings" are all over Phoenix Park. I was surprised when a Taxi driver came to a full stop at one for me, I had assumed they aren't zebra crossings and that he didn't need to stop (being closer to the crossing then I was).

Dravokivich

A lot of the pedestrian crossings in the Phoenix Park are dodgy from a motorist perspective. It's far better to err on the side of caution there and just stop when you see someone waiting at them.

TheRiverman

Anyone familiar with the ruination of Church Street in Athlone have to put up with those crossings. Disgraceful what has been done to that street.

CreadanLady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388928#Comment_119388928

A "zebra crossing" without beacons is a not a zebra crossing in the legal sense. A zebra crossing is a very specific arrangement consisting of four things

1. parallel pedestrian lines crossing the road
2. alternating black and white bands between the lines
3. zig-zag lines on the approach
4. flashing amber beacons

If any of those are missing it is not a Sign Regulations compliant zebra crossing and the pedestrian therefore does not have priority.

However, you see all sorts of mickey mouse ad-hoc arrangements on crossings, particularly older ones, with some features missing. Or a pelican crossing with red-amber-green lights but with zebra markings.

You see a lot of off-standard stuff in private developments, but you see it on public council owned roads too - there are some council's that really have a problem with off standard signage and road markings. It is a massive liability issue in my view as if an accident happens it gives the insurers an opening to offload some liability onto the council because the road layout was ambiguous and confusing and open to misinterpretation.

Dravokivich

Can argue over it till the cows come home, but it doesn't matter either way really. A pedestrian on the road always has priority.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119402988#Comment_119402988

Thats perfectly true but I do think the placement and increasing number of these speed ramps/crossings is worth debating?

Wishbone Ash

There's one of those crossings beside my house. It works reasonably well. About half of motorists will stop and treat it like a zebra crossing even without putting a foot on the street. Most of the rest will stop once a foot is put out.

(A minor irritant though are the boy racers with lowered suspension and tampered exhausts who have to slow almost to a stop to get over the ramp with the excessively noisy acceleration following. Not such an issue during the day but unpleasant in the dead of night).

magicbastarder

wasn't there a story in the media about 5 years ago about some boy racer claiming he'd been trapped by those? they'd been put up around the town he lived in and his car couldn't make it over them.

Wishbone Ash

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119418269#Comment_119418269

Limerick I think it was. IIRC he had a lowered Passat but claimed it was 'standard'. The top-end super cars have a feature which raises the car a few inches to get over such ramps.

whisky_galore

Hate these things, then the white paint wears off because the council are too starved to maintain them and they become next to invisible at night.

loyatemu

I was in France recently and they have zebra crossings everywhere but they don't have the requirement for flashing beacons. Every junction has crossings on every arm and villages will have multiple crossings along their main streets. They're pretty well obeyed by drivers in my experience. Any area with a lot of pedestrian traffic is usually a 30 zone as well.

I'd rather see similar here than these meaningless "courtesy" crossings - I'd also like to see us state explicitly, as they've done in the UK recently, that pedestrians crossing a side road have priority over cars turning into that road. We need to move from an attitude that pedestrians have to stay out of cars' way, to drivers having to take responsibility for pedestrian safety.

CreadanLady

it certainly would be a more modern and enllightened direction to take the road traffic laws, but it would require a near complete re-do of the Road Traffic Acts and Regulations.

It would be no harm to have a consolidation of the Acts and Regs anway from an administrative point of view as the current RTAs and the Regulations are a littany of piecemeal legislation going back to the 60s. It is a nightmare to navigate through.

bk

I do think they are a great from a pedestrian and cyclists perspective. They are much easier to cross if you are a wheelchair user, pushing a buggy, cycling or just have restricted movement. Also good to slow cars down.

It is just the uncertainty around it that is off putting. I agree completely with what loyatemu is saying, just make them zebra crossings and remove the uncertainty. And yes, I agree we should change the law to remove the requirement that Zebra crossings need to have flashing lights, it really isn't necessary in most cases, they don't have lights in most of mainland Europe and they work fine there. The requirement for lights just means less Zebra crossings are installed, which leaves pedestrians in a more dangerous situation.

A good example of over-engineering something for "safety" which leads to it being used less and thus leads to an overall less safe environment.

Rawr

Uncontrolled crossings are sort of the norm over here in Scandinavia and often take the form of a large speed ramp as described here. You usually know you are coming up to one when you see this:

The rules are also quite strict, there are no "should"s here. If there is a pedestrian on the crossing, or there's one about to cross, you must stop.

No need for flashing lolipops on thus setup, just a large blue sign clearly placed on each side of the crossing.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119423144#Comment_119423144

While I tend to agree I have seen some issues with all these new raised crossings particularly those near or connected to a cycle way.

The old dropped curb made it necessary for cyclists to dismount and so stop before crossing. Now and I've seen this a few times some cyclists don't stop or even look before sailing across in front of traffic.

I look at it this way. The ramp is there to slow me in a car down for cyclists etc but there is now nothing to physically slow the cyclists down and remind them they are crossing a road.

I slow ready to stop near these crossings and regularly stop for anyone that looks like they might be thinking of crossing but one very minor third world issue that boils my piss is stopping for a cyclist who then uses the crossing as a means to stop traffic and then drive off down the road.