New laws on Consent are deeply-flawed

spontindeed · 28-07-2022 6:18am #1

Proposed laws requiring the accused to prove consent are deeply flawed and a breach of the EU Rule of Law and the EU Treaties.

How is an accused supposed to know the wider knowledge of the accuser of all potential criminal engagement attributable to any particular aspect of their relationship? It seems that the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' is also under attack by this proposed law.

Since 2017, the accused can no longer cross-examine the accuser in a Court of Law and soon the accused will no longer have the right to examine the accusers psychiatric and/or counselling records. How come the European Union isn't raising the red flag about this?

Will it lead to a rise in false accusations and is there even a deterrent against the wrongful accuser due to a fall-off in prosecutions?

P. S. I'm not trying to offend anyone, I will add: read also the rules of the site. This is no place for political battles and personal insults.

Shoog · 28-07-2022 6:48am

It enshrines a simple principle, ask before engaging in sex. If the person cannot answer then don't have sex.

Rape is common and hard to prove because people get off by claiming incapacity or assumed consent. If you have sex whilst drunk then you should be justiably concerned that you could fall fowl of this law

Still stihl waters 3 · 28-07-2022 7:04am

How can you prove you asked and what's stopping someone giving consent at the time and retrospectively withdrawing it if they feel they shouldn't have given it, will men have to print off a generic consent contract to get their partner to sign

drunkmonkey · 28-07-2022 7:20am

Is there any examples of where these new type of consent laws have been tested in court, Sweden has them in a few years and last year Denmark, Australia only introduced them last month.

It appears consent has to be given, how do you prove it wasn't without a contract recorded in some way? We're still in a he said / she said scenario in court, no?

Jequ0n · 28-07-2022 7:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397524#Comment_119397524

Even if there was a signed contract the accuser could claim that they withdrew consent at a later stage…

SEPT 23 1989 · 28-07-2022 8:03am

So we removed the Catholic Church from the bedroom and now the state is lurking there

how progressive

brokenangel · 28-07-2022 9:11am

So this is been posted on other threads.

The laws are to protect women and no surprise some people are upset about that. The amount of rapes in Ireland that are not reported is huge, over 66% based on information in 2022.

So as I said on the other thread, men going out to find drunk women to sleep with have to think twice about it. Is this woman actually capable to give me consent etc. No idea why someone would see this as a bad thing?

On the other thread you tried to push that women wouldn't be able to "find a good guy"? why you think women are looking for someone who will run if they don't have sex with them up front???

The law are changed not as you claim to "that the principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' is also under attack by this proposed law", they are changed to try and make it easier for women to go to the courts and put these rapist away

66% of unreported rapes is a disgrace. No idea why someone would complain because we are trying to decrease that.

Will it lead to a rise in false accusations and is there even a deterrent against the wrongful accuser due to a fall-off in prosecutions?

This of course is given as the excuse all the time, but how may false accusations have we had in the last 20 years compared to the amount of people who didn't report because they got treated like the criminal?

Gregor Samsa · 28-07-2022 9:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397586#Comment_119397586

Preposterous take.

The Church was legislating against actions between consenting adults, and in fact endorsed "the right type" of non-consensual sex in marriage.

"Matrimonial consent is an act of the will by which each party gives and accepts a perpetual and exclusive right over the body, for acts which are of themselves suitable for the generation of children." Code of Canon Law 1081.2, 1917

This is tidying up legislation against actions where there is no consent.

Jequ0n · 28-07-2022 9:27am

“This of course is given as the excuse all the time, but how may false accusations have we had in the last 20 years compared to the amount of people who didn't report because they got treated like the criminal?”

You know very well that nobody will be able to answer this question, so why ask it in the first place?

Gregor Samsa · 28-07-2022 9:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397827#Comment_119397827

Just the same as the "question" in the op asking if it will cause a rise in false accusations.

Jequ0n · 28-07-2022 9:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397848#Comment_119397848

True, I agree.

Gant21 · 28-07-2022 9:38am

Helen will get on the case and make new laws.

brokenangel · 28-07-2022 9:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397827#Comment_119397827

You missed the number that we do know about, 66% of rapes are not reported by people. Do you not think we should be looking to reduce that number massively?

28-07-2022 9:41am

A law Protecting those who are drunk or incapacitated so that they cannot consent is to be supported - and if that’s all this law is doing then great. Determining consent in a drunken night out situation is I’m sure particularly difficult - it does sound though with this law introduced, that any content given if either or both parties are intoxicated, is in serious doubt?

If it makes people more cautious about sexual encounters where drugs or alcohol are taken, it’s probably a good thing -reduced sexual assaults, reduced unwanted pregnancies reduced morning after regrets; but the litmus test of the success of this law should be a reduction in rapes where there was intoxication by one or both parties- let’s see what happens there.

John Doe1 · 28-07-2022 9:42am

The same people who would support this are probably people who said #believeallwomen on twitter as if women did not have the capacity to lie or exaggerate.

I think there should be a new legislation where false accusations of sexual assault should result in a long jail term.

Nuts102 · 28-07-2022 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397827#Comment_119397827

Who cares about examples over the last 20 years.

Would you not agree that one man being arrested or losing his job and reputation would be enough?

Jequ0n · 28-07-2022 9:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397893#Comment_119397893

I think that case was a farce and he was made an example of, but I think this thread is not specifically aiming at discussing that case.

hynesie08 · 28-07-2022 9:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397891#Comment_119397891

How about we start with proper sentences for sexual assault and work from there?

magicbastarder · 28-07-2022 9:47am

Proposed laws requiring the accused to prove consent are deeply flawed and a breach of the EU Rule of Law and the EU Treaties.

source?

drunkmonkey · 28-07-2022 9:48am

Where are you getting those figures and have you a breakdown by gender?

Also "The laws are to protect women and no surprise some people are upset about that"

From reading the Australian law it makes no reference to the sex of the victim.

If women are underreporting men must be multiples time that.

I don't think it's going to do anything to the 66% figure, if anything people could be more inclined to lie about who they are, that's also covered under the Australian law as non consent when you do that.

Mad_maxx · 28-07-2022 9:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397586#Comment_119397586

I've said it before, many feminists are just secular nuns

The Mighty Quinn · 28-07-2022 9:50am

PlentyOhToole, I agree with the general thrust of your post, but it won't make people more cautious about sexual encounters when alcohol has been taken, its one of the side effects isn't it, lowered inhibitions, poorer decision making etc etc.

In theory it's great, but in practice I don't know how it's enforced unless all sexual encounters are deemed non consentual if alcohol has been consumed. Does this then auto default to the man being guilty of rape if both have had drink? Maybe that's correct as she clearly wasn't in a position to consent? But what if she gave a resounding 'yes' to sex on the night and next day regrets and she felt she was taken advantage of?

The 'guilty until proven innocent' approach worries me if this is the direction it goes.

Mad_maxx · 28-07-2022 9:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397878#Comment_119397878

How do we know that?

Sounds like feminist propaganda along the lines of " a quarter of female college students have been victims of sexual assault "

Ireland isn't the Congo

28-07-2022 9:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397891#Comment_119397891

I’m giving the law a guarded welcome because I’m in favour of protecting those who cannot give consent but it has to work in reality - if two people who are both intoxicated, meet up and have sex and neither feels bad the following day, then great- intoxication was not a factor that impinged on the ability of either party to consent.

But if one person feels they were taken advantage of because they were drunk, can’t remember what happened and are appalled to find themselves in bed naked with someone else, then mission control, we have a problem.

To what degree this law will enable more prosecutions than previously remains to be seen - the intoxicated state of either of both parties limits investigators to determine exactly what happened and to what degree any laws were broken

Jequ0n · 28-07-2022 10:06am

“But if one person feels they were taken advantage of because they were drunk, can’t remember what happened and are appalled to find themselves in bed naked with someone else, then mission control, we have a problem.”

But this in itself is hugely problematic. Where do we draw the line with regards to personal responsibility, particularly if both parties were intoxicated?

Like many others I have wollen up next to people and wondered what on earth I had been thinking the night before, but it never occurred to me to insist that I had been taken advantage of.

Jim2007 · 28-07-2022 10:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058256463/new-laws-on-consent-are-deeply-flawed

Well if it is there is nothing to worry about because the law will not stand for very long. Mind you I’m not sure who you’d get the ECJ to rule on a criminal matter…. Perhaps you should make yourself available to advise barristers on the matter because obviously the ones involved in drafting the legislation need help.

You need a better approach for trolling, at least I hope that is what this is.

28-07-2022 10:07am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397938#Comment_119397938

Yep - it was somewhat tongue in check when I mentioned less pregnancies less regret etc- I totally agree with you that society, especially young people in their late teens and 20s, will have a lot of adapting in their behaviour if we’re to see a reduction in alcohol / drug related rapes.

People won’t stop going out enjoying themselves with alcohol; won’t stop one night stands; we could get carried away saying all drunk sex is wrong- in vast majority of cases both parties have no regrets or at least, have no feeling they were raped- so that’s great.

But in the cases where there was no consent, it has made it easier for the victim to come forward- that has to be a good thing. It probably puts greater emphasis now on “what is consent” which is not a bad thing either- if this law scares serial predators of drunken girls in nite clubs then that can’t be bad- but I don’t want to see a guilty till proven innocent approach coming into law- and anyway there would be a constitutional challenge if it did

28-07-2022 10:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397769#Comment_119397769

The laws are to protect women and no surprise some people are upset about that.

Except they're not. They're concerned about laws which might give excessive power to women in claiming rape.

And that statement of yours shows exactly why people should be concerned, as it reinforces the impression that such measures will be used to push an agenda. The same agenda that points to toxic masculinity, the claims of a rape culture, the projection of responsibility on to all men for what some men do, etc.

Boggles · 28-07-2022 10:16am

The bill also includes the provision that self-induced intoxication would not be a defence to a charge of rape in relation to an accused's capacity to understand if he did have consent

But when was that ever a defence? Have we precedent where someone raped someone but was acquitted because they were píssed?

The bill would also provide for anonymity for victims and the accused in all trials for sexual offences and not just in rape trials.

I imagine the above will be largely welcomed?

Mrs OBumble · 28-07-2022 10:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397885#Comment_119397885

And in particular

Determining consent in a drunken night out situation is I’m sure particularly difficult

No, it's not.

If you aren't 100% sure that the person is saying Yes, and in a state where they are reasonably able to do so and will remember it later, then assume that they are saying No.

PGE1970 · 28-07-2022 10:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119397878#Comment_119397878

66% of alleged rapes.

New laws on Consent are deeply-flawed

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