DART+ (DART Expansion)

L1011 · 25-07-2022 9:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387039#Comment_119387039

Well... Reillys LC was closed, Porterstown should have been except Varadkar interfered; multiple bridges were raised during the track dualling (albeit not all of the ones on the way). Signalling isn't particularly old, but will need to be altered to reflect crossing closures anyway.

dublinman1990 · 25-07-2022 9:56pm

I just had a look at the RTÉ News app on this story just now. The artists impression of the depot from that article itself looks really nice.

Although the snail's pace analogy is very apt for this project. 5 years even for the first phase of this project is way too long.

I would not be surprised to hear that other parts of DART+ would possibly be delayed to get some progress on them.

The other parts of DART+ do have so many variables at play which could see how it could be so challenging to actually build a new DART service to enhance the passenger numbers on certain lines that will allow rail passengers to go into Dublin City Centre and beyond that if they so wish.

Why would it take 5 years to try and develop a new DART service alongside building a new depot in a place located outside Maynooth as well building the new stations alongside it.

If you are building a new depot outside of that location. I thought it would have been a huge advantage for IÉ to try and build a new depot as the whole section of Maynooth to Sligo is built on a single track alignment.

That to me could have possibly meant that you would have less trains going through the lines every day which allow workmen to build the track and depot while it was done off the main line between Sligo and Connolly.

But you would have to start from somewhere to actually get it built. And the only place you would begin to do it would be from the mainline track itself.

cgcsb · 25-07-2022 9:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387054#Comment_119387054

Yes some work was done but pretty glacial really, there shouldn't be level crossings at all on a commuter rail system. The fact that Ashtown still exists is a disgrace and it just wouldn't wash anywhere else. Very little money has been spent on rail infrastructure to date and that's the reason we need these mega projects to bring the railway to a modern standard.

crazy 88 · 25-07-2022 11:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387039#Comment_119387039

It most definitely is not mega a project for the reasons I outlined. A mega project would be the metro, the badly needed dart underground and another metro to the south/south east of the city which will never happen.

cgcsb · 26-07-2022 7:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119387468#Comment_119387468

It's a mega project in Ireland because it costs a billion euro

Former Former Former · 26-07-2022 7:42am

But IE knew all the issues from the outset. Nothing has come up in the last two years that was a surprise. Wait until they start digging up ground that has been untouched since the Victorian era...

Nothing has changed and still we've seen a 4-year slippage in the delivery date. If we don't know why the slippage has occurred, how do we know there won't be more?

Even the RTE report states "the new service could start operating by 2029", which I presume means "the new service will not be operating by 2029".

cgcsb · 26-07-2022 7:52am

The dates thrown around at the start of a project are usually political and not grounded in anything. Not just in Ireland but pretty universally in Spain the basque cities were supposed to be connected to Madrid by high speed rail about 10 years ago, work is ongoing. The new tunnel from Denmark to Germany has slipped about 20 years. Then there's berlins new airport...

murphaph · 26-07-2022 9:52am

5 years is very unambitious. The stopping up of level crossings involves building alternate bridges and accompanying roads infrastructure, so basically has almost nothing to do with the railway itself. Probably completely different contractors involved too.

The depot is the same story. Most of the work is in the erection of the building, which is general contractor stuff.

These aspects of the project could clearly run parallel to each other and barely affect the running of the railway.

Only the actual erection of catenary and signalling and any remaining track lowering (some has already been done) would need to be (possibly) done one after the other.

So the question can really be broken down into multiple questions:

Is 5 years reasonable for a depot?

Is 5 years reasonable for a bridge? (They can build them in parallel too!)

Is 5 years reasonable for the erection of catenary and resignalling?

In some developed countries they actually build new underground lines in 5 years, just for comparison.

CatInABox · 26-07-2022 11:50am

I wonder if they've agreed to build the Metrolink station box at Glasnevin during this project. It'd make sense to do it now, and might be one of the reasons for the increased timeline.

cgcsb · 26-07-2022 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388146#Comment_119388146

There are complexities:

Sheriff St, broombridge and cope Bridge are heritage structures which must be deconstructed stone by stone, numbered and reassembled in the same order.

Ashtown involves building a new tunnel under a live railway and canal

Work on some retaining walls is required where the railway is in cutting then you have track lowering beside the canal which is sensitive

The proposed underground station at Spencer Dock is in completely saturated soil which complicates matters.

A road realignment and bridge near the depot is also proposed. The Depot complex its self is massive, about 2km long all in.

cgcsb · 26-07-2022 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388697#Comment_119388697

Nope. The whole dart metro interchange at Glasnevin will be part of the metrolink railway order. There is nothing planned in glasnevin as part of the DART railway order

Pete_Cavan · 26-07-2022 1:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119388826#Comment_119388826

Isn't there track adjustments and signalling changes are required at Glasnevin J to allow trains continue towards Connolly while the Metrolink station is constructed which will be under the DART RO?

cgcsb · 26-07-2022 2:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389154#Comment_119389154

Yes electricifcation too but no works related to the station which will all be in metrolink railway order. If metrolink doesn't happen there'll also be no dart station at glasnevin

spacetweek · 26-07-2022 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119383523#Comment_119383523

Metrolink's slippage is a disgrace for the ages so probably not good to compare to that.

2029 is a disgraceful slippage. I was expecting 2026!

spacetweek · 26-07-2022 10:35pm

The article says a billion euro - but I think that's for the whole of DART+, right? Surely the maynooth line alone is not costing a billion euro?

marno21 · 26-07-2022 10:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391913#Comment_119391913

€1.1bn for DART+ West alone.

We heard just before the initial Covid outbreak that the entire DART+ scheme would cost €2.6bn and that was before the price of everything went mental so it’s not altogether surprising that it’s such a high cost.

L1011 · 26-07-2022 10:45pm

West includes the depot for the entire project, remember.

Peregrine · 26-07-2022 10:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391913#Comment_119391913

It is. It's the most expensive of them all.

cgcsb · 26-07-2022 11:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119391913#Comment_119391913

Just west, which is the most expensive of the planned routes. SW will also cost a fair bit in retaining walls and bridge reconstruction. Coastal is barely a project at all, closure of the South side level crossings which won't happen anyway and extend overhead power to Drogheda

strassenwo!f · 27-07-2022 12:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119389586#Comment_119389586

The proposed DART-enabling works at Glasnevin will presumably be carried out at least with a view to enabling fairly seamless interchange between all of the 'overground' lines (PPT and Maynooth/Dunboyne). One of the reasons why a DART station there is desirable is because it would provide several useful interchange opportunities for travel between points in the west of the city, without necessitating a trip right into the heart of the city itself.

It also makes sense because it would add the surrounding area directly into a growing DART network.

In the event that metrolink doesn't happen, it should be a relatively simple matter to proceed with the DART part of the plan for that station, given that the necessary preliminary work will have already been done, or will at least be in progress.

In an area of town which does not have a DART station, it would be total nonsense if it were not to rapidly become part of the extended DART network, metrolink or no metrolink, given its fine interchange possibilities and a decent-sized local population.

crazy 88 · 27-07-2022 1:13am

How do they plan to extend the line to Spencer dock? Although I'm 99.9% sure that part of the project will not go ahead

AngryLips · 27-07-2022 8:35am

Has it been confirmed what lines will feed into Spencer Dock? I think during the consultation there was a question mark over whether services from all north/westbound services could travel to spencer dock (northern line, Maynooth, Newcomen and PPT)

L1011 · 27-07-2022 8:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119392401#Comment_119392401

Rebuild the existing bridge on Sheriff Street.

roadmaster · 27-07-2022 1:07pm

Irish Rail have planning lodged with louth County Council for charging station for the new BEMU fleet at Mcbride Station

strassenwo!f · 27-07-2022 1:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119392653#Comment_119392653

I am surprised there may have been this question mark.

All of the M3 Parkway, Maynooth and PPT trains can currently use the line via Glasnevin Junction and Drumcondra, which leads into the proposed line to Spencer Dock (after splitting off from the line into Connolly and going under the Northern Line), so, yes, they could indeed all go into the proposed Spencer Dock station under this plan.

Of course, at the moment, only the Maynooth and PPT trains actually take that Glasnevin-Drumcondra route, while the M3 Parkway line doesn't do that, and instead heads into the Docklands Station along the Royal Canal.

There seems to me to be no limit here for how many trains can be pushed down that Glasnevin-Drumcondra corridor into and out of Spencer Dock, or into the Loop Line, if this plan unfolds.

An occasional Sligo train, in or out of Dublin? With decent timetabling, a Maynooth or M3 Parkway train can be easily pushed onto the Midland line and into Spencer Dock, without going via Drumcondra, to leave space for an express to/from Sligo. This could be a timetabled push.

The Midland Line is very good to have, and I would happily see it as a sort of exhaust valve here if there's a Sligo train - Dublin: There are around 10 Sligo trains in or out, plus a few other Longford trains and such. And there are two parallel rail lines in the key area of discussion.

crazy 88 · 27-07-2022 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119392665#Comment_119392665

Rebuild an existing bridge? Does it use the line from Connolly and how will it negotiate the multitude of buildings around that area?

L1011 · 27-07-2022 2:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394400#Comment_119394400

There is a station at Docklands already. The line will go under the bridge that is behind Docklands station and through some currently unused land (it has access to a bus parking area) to the new station site.

crazy 88 · 27-07-2022 2:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394420#Comment_119394420

Thats still pretty complex. Will involve a lot of tunneling. Can see this going from 'proposed' to shelved

L1011 · 27-07-2022 2:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119394478#Comment_119394478

It really isn't complex at all. All the drawings are up. The line is just going a few hundred metres closer to the river, under the (to be rebuilt) bridge. There is no tunnelling at all.

Are you perhaps confusing Spencer Dock with somewhere else?