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Cork Area Commuter Rail (CACR)

1246711

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,203 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    What more do you need?

    That’s three through platforms, and two south facing bays.

    I doubt Cork will need much more than that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Might be nice if they put two platforms there (Eastbound and Westbound) and had all of the Cobh/Midleton Trains come through, as it's a couple of hundred metres closer to the city centre.

    To be honest my biggest desire is that Kent station would get some kind of shopping facilities to help generate more revenue for IÉ and make "getting the train home" a really nice daily commute.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,775 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    If Kent were to fulfill its full potential then it would be the terminus of frequent suburban services to Tralee and Limerick in addition to Dublin intercity and a Dart-like commuter service. As it is, the Tralee line points the wrong way and there's no rail to Limerick even as Government plans a motorway there...



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Part of the remit of the N/M20 scheme is a rail link. It looks like it will be adding a direct turn at Limerick Junction and double tracking into Colbert (as planned under the draft LSMATS).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Cork-Limerick already has a direct route through Limerick Junction, albeit single track. Not exactly the most critical bottleneck on the rail system.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    I think it is wishful thinking to say the N/M20 scheme "looks like" including double tracking into Colbert. How many trains between Limerick and Cork/Waterford would you need to justify double tracking?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,931 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    A train for Dublin should depart from Limerick each hour.

    A train for Cork should depart from Limerick each hour.

    So there should be 2 tph each way on the branch to Limerick, plus any Waterford trains.

    Can that be managed on a single track?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 12,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Except that's not what I said. The double tracking is listed in the draft LSMATS and IE have plans to do it. There is currently an hourly direct service between Limerick and Dublin and an hourly service to the junction using the single track at very slow speeds. If the plan to reopen the Foynes line for freight gets off the ground, this traffic would also use the line. Just as the road between the two cities need upgrading, so does the rail line.

    The bit I said looked like being included as the rail option of the N/M20 is a direct loop to avoid Limerick Junction station to connect to that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,821 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Dublin to Cork services will likely have their frequencies increased to half hourly and some line speed improvements in the coming years. It would only be logical to have a shuttle from Limerick Junction to Limerick to meet the more frequent trains so Double tracking would be a must on the Limerick to Limerick junction line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    A half hourly shuttle wouldn't justify the cost of double tracking and there isn't commuter potential on the line. A passing loop will do the job at a fractionofthe price. I doubt we'll see a half hourly service between Dublin and Cork anytime soon, the rolling stock requirements would be big. Money would be better spent on improving the line via Nenagh where at least there are commuters.

    The Cork Suburban services will take most of the Mallow passengers, freeing some capacity on the Cork end, the quad tracking into Heuston might see more services from Portlaoise to Dublin on the other end. An hourly service plus a couple of peak time express services between Dublin and Cork would be enough, that could achieve an attractive journey time with the planned speed improvements.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,319 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    limerick to lj is so short that a passing loop may as well just be double track anyway so a passing loop wouldn't really be at a fraction of the cost when it comes down to actually getting it done.

    rolling stock for a half hourly cork service wouldn't be that big, double what exists if even which is not that much in the great scheme of things, but yes personally i can't see that frequency either.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,203 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think you’ll be proven wrong regarding Limerick to Limerick Junction. I think of all the proposed mainline rail projects, it’s the most likely to happen.

    The line is already double track to Killonan Junction and there is already a passing loop at Dromkeen.

    It is very tightly scheduled at Killonan as it is to offer the connections at Limerick Junction.

    In the greater scheme of things it’s not a mega project to double Killonan to Dromkeen and Dromkeen to Limerick Junction.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,242 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Lmk-LJ is 35km or so, even a 10km passing loop would be much cheaper than doing the whole thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,821 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    How long would a passing loop have to be? The half hourly shuttle wouldnt be the only service, there's also direct trains to Dublin and Cork, most likely hourly. Might aswel double track the whole route. There'll be 4 trains per hour per direction at least. Not doable on single track, where current journeys are 25 mins.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,821 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    In 2019 every Dublin Cork train I got on was wedged to the roof. If we get line speed improvements to the tune of 2hr journeys you'll get a huge uptake. A similar road journey is 3 hrs and we're supposed to be targeting reduced road journeys according to policy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,319 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    I know, i wasn't saying it isn't viable as it clearly is, what i was saying was that i can't see it being done for "reasons"

    it is very clear it should be done.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    IE have commenced a pre application consultation for the Railway Order for twin tracking Glounthane-Midleton with ABP


    https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/312676



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender out for the signalling and communications upgrade for the Cork Area Commuter Rail project.

    €60m estimated contract value.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭Economics101


    The €60m appears to be just for Signalling and Telecommunications upgrade. What about associated track and Station works? I guess that rolling stock is already spoken for in the recent Alstom order. Very little practical information as to what is involved.

    Seems very expensive as the existing infrastructure can cope with (a) half-hourly frequency to both Cobh and Midleton, and (b) 4-car trains as opposed to the existing 2-car. I know that investment in extra capacity will be needed for Cork-Mallow, but €60m (plus) seems a lot of money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,931 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    Why is a Railway Order planning permission even needed?

    If a single track is being replaced with twin tracks, without any land acquisition or new structures, then IMHO, no planning permission should be needed.



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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    It's for resignalling of 60km of the network. That's not cheap. Cobh and Middleton will need 10 minute headways each. 5 minutes from Kent to Glounthaune.

    For comparison, Dublin's City Centre Resignalling Project cost €120m.

    Twin tracking and Kent Station upgrades aren't part of this contract. That's a different section of the project and will be built by someone else.



  • Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭specialbyte


    I wish we didn't need to delay this project with planning permission but this project almost certainly does need some level of planning permission. Without seeing the planning particulars there are two areas I can for-see that move this project from simple engineering works, that don't need planning permission, into something that would require planning permission. The first is the existing bridge over the Owenacurra River in Midleton isn't capable of being twin tracked. This will likely require a new bridge or widening of the existing bridge, building a structure, particular a new bridge requires planning permission. The other is dealing with the small number of level crossings along the route. Building a new road over the railway (a new structure) or closing the public right of way requires planning permission.

    I strongly suspect that the EIA screening of the project will show that there is a *potential* of likely significant environmental impact (a low bar) so much so that they will be required to do an Environmental Impact Assessment Report, which will require Irish Rail to identify all environmental impacts in areas like noise/vibration, air pollution, hydrology, human health etc.

    We'll see what ABP's decision is on the pre-application consultation is on 14th June.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,167 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The tender clearly is just for Signalling and Telecommunications upgrades, tat is obvious from the notice.

    The funding is linked to EU's Covid recovery fund, so has to be spent fairly quickly. Ths work can be done without pp so makes sense to push ahead with it now. Track and station works will require pp and additional design work, assessments, etc.

    The cost doesn't sound unreasonable for the 62km of track between Mallow and Middleton/Cobh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    Some good news - the line is to be closed July 2 to July 17 to allow improvement works. Once this is complete, the line will have its off-peak frequency on weekdays doubled to every 30 minutes, or every 15 on the combined section between Cork Kent & Glounthaune.

    Also mentioned in the article:

    Iarnród Eireann also confirmed today that it plans to unveil details later this month of investment on a second track between Glounthaune and Midleton, and begin public consultation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,373 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    That's a big step up in frequency. I can see a lot of virtually empty trains running during the day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,531 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Ah that answers a question I’ve had since I walk on the road along the river a lot and so i saw two piles of what look like ballast sitting on the right side of the line at what was tivoli station.



  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,501 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Tender out for the construction of the Glounthane-Midleton twin tracking

    Esimated value €30m.



  • Registered Users Posts: 326 ✭✭MyLove4Satan


    "much cheaper" - do you understand that this mentality is why we have a shite rail and public transport service in Ireland?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Nothing about bridge widths at Glonuthaune/Carrigtohill. They must be considered wide enough for the twin track.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I disagree. Budgets are limited and you always need to look for cost-effective and affordable options. If I had €100m to spend on capacity improvements I would do 10km on Limerick to Lim Jcn and 15km or so between Athlone an Portarlington, plus extending 4 tracks from Cherry Orchard to Inchicore. The trouble is we do literally almost nothing to improve capacity as it is.

    I'm not sure whether doubling on the Midleton line would be my priority by the way. It's probably done because there is special earmarked EU money at stake.



  • Registered Users Posts: 242 ✭✭specialbyte


    From the tender link:

    Twin tracking of the single-track sections between Glounthaune and Midleton (approximately 70% of the 10km route)

    I suspect the 70% of 10km route means they are avoiding some of the bridge issues in this round. It might strike the right kind of pragmatic uses of time and money. Changing bridges would likely require planning permission, something that this limited improvement doesn't need. Planning permission takes time and will delay this upgrade for years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭Economics101


    By "avoiding the bridge issues" what do you mean? Single track at the bridges? Not even the NTA would go for such a daft scheme. Earlier we had €60m for S and T work, now €30m for less than 10km of track-doubling. And that's before the almost inevitable cost over-run.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,362 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    How much of that 30% includes the passing loop at Carrigtwohill? I remember it being fairly long from the few times I was on it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭Frostybrew


    The 30% includes the passing loops. When the line was reopened in 2009 it was constructed as a single line which could be easily upgraded to double track when demand was reached. 3 extended passing loops of 1km in length were also added to allow for higher service frequency than a regular single track line would allow. This is also why the budget is relatively low, as most of the ground work has already been completed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Thanks. Apologies if it has been well answered but I don't fully understand: will the bridges need to be modified? Is it too early to tell?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Sorry, this is wrong. The line was never double so the earthworks need attention. Also the existing track will need to be slewed to accommodate the second track. Finally, there was one crossing loop installed in 2009, a long "dynamic" loop at Carraigtohill. There are facilities for crossing trains at either end (at the Junction and at Midleton), not quite the same thing as crossing loops.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭Frostybrew


    I believe the bridges built in 2009 can accommodate double track. Some of the older pre 2009 structures may need modifying though.

    Yes you are correct the line was never double track, but that's not what I stated, which you will notice if you reread the post. Fair enough on the length of passing's loops. Its a 2km passing loop at Carrigtwohill and two 500m loops at Glounthaune and Midleton. 3km in total. The line was constructed to the recommendations of the 2003 Faber Maunsell report.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,291 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    I believe the bridges at Glounthaune (Elm Tree) and immediately adjacent to the west of Carrigtohill are the original bridges and may have been built to single-track width.

    I believe that the bridge on station road is original but was built to double track width originally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭Frostybrew


    Yes that is correct. The station road bridge is already double track as it is part of the passing loop. Interestingly the present rail bridge over the Owennacurra river has pillars constructed for double track but only single track bridging.



  • Registered Users Posts: 421 ✭✭Ireland trains


    what fleet is being planned for the Cork network once these upgrades are done?

    could the 29ks be cascaded from Dublin or could IE order a hybrid fleet from Alstom



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,529 ✭✭✭thomil


    Knowing the "minimum effort" policy that seems to underline any type of public transport investment outside of Dublin, I'd say we'll be lucky if we get some clapped out old 27ks pulled from retirement/abandonment, if we get anything at all. More likely, they'll just try to operate the extended services with the existing DMUs already assigned to Cork until they fall apart.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,360 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Most likely it'd be refurbished 29000s cascaded from Dublin.

    The 27x0s are not economical to return to service; they would require a very significant overhaul; with the costs involved of doing that for a small and indeed split fleet (2700s, 2750s and the hybrid - I'd expect that to be just dumped if this was hypothetically being done) just not making sense; whereas it probably would for 116 identical cars.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭Economics101


    2700s definitely not coming back, for reasons given by L1011. And I have it on good authority that the 2600s used on Cork suburban are the most reliable units on Irish Rail, which is ironic given that they are the oldest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,373 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    The consultation for the dual tracking to Midleton is now open. As regards the bridges issue, the project team are saying the existing bridges are ok and don't need modification, or very minor works where necessary, to accommodate dual tracking. Drawings and reports are at the link.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,931 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    What can't a train run from Mallow to Midleton at the moment?

    Why is a new platform needed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,931 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    What works are required?

    The main element of the Glounthaune to Midleton Twin Track project consists of the provision of a second track over the full extent of the line. These works will largely be contained within the existing railway corridor and will include the following:

    • Addition of 2nd track over the full extent of the line;
    • Addition of sidings/turn back facilities at Midleton;
    • Modification/replacement of bridges and level crossings to facilitate the twin tracking
    • Associated signalling upgrades and alterations;
    • All associated civil works (retaining walls, boundary treatments, etc.).

    All works completed as part of the project will be compatible with future electrification of the Cork Area Commuter Rail network.

    While there will be some disruption to services during construction of the new track, this will be kept to a minimum.



    https://www.irishrail.ie/Admin/getmedia/0aa1f923-a2e4-4c5e-ae4e-c2d70be4157b/Project-Description.pdf

    The works are due to commence in 2023 and continue for 2-3 years. 


    Two to three years to lay 10km of track on an existing line? Does this seem slow?

    In my head, you could lay at least 100m a day, surely?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,203 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    One through platform is occupied by a Dublin/Cork train for much of each hour between trips.

    With the new service planned as being high frequency between Mallow and Cobh/Midleton, you need two through platforms to be available for the service to be able to operate effectively.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,931 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Okay, thanks.

    Is there a terminus platform for the Dublin trains to use?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,203 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No - only the two through platforms are available from the north.

    The bay platforms are at the far end of the station facing towards East Cork.

    The extra through platform is essential.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,373 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    They say that most of the work will take place at night and weekends to minimize disruption to the rail service. As they want to keep the line open for service as much as possible this significantly reduces the time available to do the works, hence the longer timeframe.



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