Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Overheal · 17-07-2022 05:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348230#Comment_119348230

Do biological women belong in a biological mens division, conversely?

some here seem to think that’s grand - but they’re being swept up in these transphobic bans, too.

17-07-2022 05:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119349541#Comment_119349541

Of course they don't belong there.

The principal must apply both ways.

Overheal · 17-07-2022 05:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119349559#Comment_119349559

Even though many have argued they compete at a distinct disadvantage?

17-07-2022 05:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119349570#Comment_119349570

They can defend themselves.

My position is crystal clear that no biological man should compete in a women's competition and no biological female should compete in a men's competition.

17-07-2022 05:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119342221#Comment_119342221

If you believe that women can't have penises, that - according to trans activists - means we are transphobic.

So almost everyone in the country must be transphobic by that measure.

That's why the power of that label has weakened in value over the past number of years.

It's also why organisations like FINA and other sporting bodies have said enough is enough and it's about time we don't cower like cowards to this bullying minority of activists.

TooTired123 · 17-07-2022 07:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119348437#Comment_119348437

Yes. If a person has fully transitioned by the age of 12 (fully transitioned ) then they are welcome to compete in womens sports. Just as the swimming world has agreed.

The rest of your post is nonsense and anti science and you seem confused beyond explanation.

17-07-2022 08:01PM

Absolutely outrageous. What a total insult to the biologically female NCAA competitors.

https://twitter.com/SwimmingWorld/status/1547950609302560775

Quantum Erasure · 17-07-2022 08:42PM

no need to panic just yet...

The duo is among 577 graduating student-athletes in Division I, II and III nominated for the award. Schools nominate their athletes for the award, and conferences select up to two from each school. The preliminary list will be narrowed down to 10 athletes from each division, 30 in total.

she was the only one nominated / selected from Penn. State University, so she's not taking anyone elses place

Overheal · 18-07-2022 04:05AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119350460#Comment_119350460

You act like “biological females” were recently banned from competing

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 12:07PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119351826#Comment_119351826

When all else fails pull out the "insult to women" card.

"Trans women are 'bigger' because they are 'men'"= look, here are many examples of biological women who are far bigger than biological men who play the same sport (not against each other as that's bad m'kay).

"Size has nothing to do with it. It's about what happened the male body when it went through puberty" = here are time comparisons showing a drop in performance when hormone blockers are taken/ what about people who transition before puberty?

"Puberty blockers are bad and experimental and woke parents just give them out" = puberty blockers are prescribed in rare instances on the advice of a team of experts including a paediatric endocrinologist, they have been in use for gender dysphoria since the 1990s, and for early onset puberty since the 1980s.

"Biological men have an advantage and will always beat biological women" = here are trans women who have been beaten by biological women. Here is a biological man who spars against a biological woman in boxing - and loses.

"12 year old boys would beat any senior national women's team" = ok. USA women's soccer team, lacking match time, played boys team of an exclusive academy in a friendlies 7 (U15s) and 5 (U17s) years ago - and lost. I'll give you that. But - we are not talking about biological mean directly competing against biological women. We are talking about Trans Women - who are required to pass certain hormone levels tests ( in fact all women are required to pass these hormone tests!) before they are allowed to compete - none of the players on the boys teams would pass.

"Hormones don't matter" = Ok, explain the changes in a trans man's body when they medically transition? Would you be happy for a medically transitioned man to compete against biological women who are not taking hormones?

"There are no trans men competing in elite/professional sport" = here are trans men competing in elite sports.

"trans women are taking biological women's places in sports" = hang on, we're still on trans men.. are they taking 'men's places'? Why aren't you upset about that, you know... fairness etc etc / Did women who were found to be intersex after they failed 'gender verification' following competing at elite level 'take a biological woman's place'? / Did Michelle Smith 'take someone's place'? She did, apparently cheat at the Olympics (but passed all the tests at the time)./ When did people become entitled to places?

"it's all an insult to women" = I'm a woman. Not even slightly insulted by trans women competing in sports. Bit miffed about the trope that trans women are always going to beat biological women as I find that both sexist and unsupported by the stats.

18-07-2022 12:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352926#Comment_119352926

A biological male on hormones is still a biological male, and so - on that basis alone - should not compete in a biological women's competition.

Even if every single biological male on hormones was guaranteed to come last, I'd still be against their inclusion into a biological women's competition on the basis that it's a biological women's competition.

I don't care if they're 160cm tall or 240cm tall. I don't care whether their testosterone levels are 10 nmol/L or 40 nmol/L. I don't care if they weigh 50kg or 150kg.

Because none of that is relevant. The clue is in the name: "biological women's competition".

And that alone is what should decide who is included and who is excluded.

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 12:53PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119352972#Comment_119352972

Events called "Biological Women's Competition" exist only in your imagination.

There is literally no such thing.

There does seem to be certain sports that have a "Women who pass specific tests as to their testosterone levels Competitions" - it's mainly women assigned female at birth who, as an adult, fail the 'gender verification' test who get kicked out of those.

Then there are the sports that have "Trans women can compete as long as they transitioned before puberty Competitions".

18-07-2022 01:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353179#Comment_119353179

By way of contrast, if a cat were allowed to compete at Crufts, it could no longer be called an "international dog competition".

You can call it something else, which predominantly involves dogs, but it's no longer a dog competition.

The logic is the same.

You know perfectly well that your position is invalid and destructive, but you're willing to accept that as long as the agenda is pushed through.

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 01:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353243#Comment_119353243

Unable to produce even one competition called "Biological Women's Competition", and having overplayed the "insult to women" card, poster clutches at analogy based on two difference species.

Actual different species.

Up next: Orangutans are not allowed to compete in "human Competitions" which proves that trans women are not primates.

Bottom of barrel at risk of being scraped beyond repair.

18-07-2022 01:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353297#Comment_119353297

The logic is the same.

If a category is to mean anything at all, it must have defined boundaries.

Biological males - whether they are taking hormones or not - are contraindicated in a women's competition, by axiom.

CatFromHue · 18-07-2022 01:35PM

You seem to be focusing on individual outcomes and not the trend.

We know that the transition process doesn't eliminate male physical advantage so statistically transwomen will be overly represented at the higher levels of female sport.

Laurel Hubbard set a Junior record in New Zealand and stopped lifting in 2001. After transitioning, in 2012, she resumed weight lifting and eventually qualified for the Olympics. She was over 40 and the oldest weightlifter to qualify.

Lia Thomas was a poor to average swimmer at the elite level but after transitioning she starts to win at elite level.

Kate Weatherly was an average mountain biker as a male in the category below elite level but after transitioning became a top elite biker. She said she was taking hormone blockers when racing as a male so that confuses things here.

Fallon Fox used to compete in MMA. She competed at the level below UFC which is the highest level in MMA. She had 6 fights and lost once. The person she lost to went on to compete in the UFC. One of the women she beat ended up with a fractured orbital and needed staples to her skull. These injuries are very very rare in female MMA, not so much male MMA.

The trend is pointing one way here. That trans women have an advantage over biological women which is backed up by both science and results.

Identify how you want and live the best life you can. There is an issue when it comes to competing though.

Overheal · 18-07-2022 01:50PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353243#Comment_119353243

So this equivocation of women to dogs and cats isn’t insulting to women?

Overheal · 18-07-2022 01:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353436#Comment_119353436

You seem to be focusing on individual outcomes and not the trend

by definition elite sporting competition is literally about individual outcomes and not “the trend”

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 01:55PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353436#Comment_119353436

And yet the real statistics do not confirm your claim that statistically transwomen will be overly represented. The real statistics show that trans women are hardly represented at all. 45 years after Richards' won the right to compete in women's category as a professional tennis player the number of trans women competing at elite level barely make double digits.

18-07-2022 01:59PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353557#Comment_119353557

That's simply disingenuous.

If I were to say that cooking steak and chips doesn't belong in a baking competition, I'm not comparing steak to women.

What I am saying is that where categories exist, we must respect the firm boundaries of those categories.

But you know that.

CatFromHue · 18-07-2022 02:02PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353612#Comment_119353612

In relation to their numbers in society they are over represented.

CatFromHue · 18-07-2022 02:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353577#Comment_119353577

For the competitor yes, not for the administrator.

If I'm competing it's about my results, if I'm setting the rules it's about all the results.

Overheal · 18-07-2022 02:12PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353652#Comment_119353652

You can bake a steak? And chips?

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 02:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353677#Comment_119353677

If total number of elite trans women athletes across a wide range of sports is just into double digits in 45 years = overly represented : that makes a nonsense of the claim their (statistically miniscule) participation in any given sport threatens biological women's participation.

You can't have it both ways:

there are either so many trans women competing in women's sports that it have a genuine over all statistical effect i.e. we see trans women dominating/winning medals/setting records.

OR

There are so few elite trans women athletes that less than 20 across all sports in approx 50 years provide all the data we have.

Only one of those can be true. And it's the latter.

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 02:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353652#Comment_119353652

The category that does not exist is "Biological Women's Competitions".

The category that does exists is "Women's competitions where competitors pass a testosterone level test regardless of whether they are 'biological' or not"

or to put it in your terms:

There are no "Competition where anything that can be baked is baked"

There are "Baking Competitions" - with heats that include bread, various sponges, meringue, diverse pastes (which means things like puff/filo/shortcrust/choux etc etc).

Wolves are not allowed to compete in Crufts - have you tried to make an analogy out of that yet?

AMKC · 18-07-2022 02:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353243#Comment_119353243

Actually no it's not. It is the truth. You just can't handle the truth. So whatever advantage people think a Trans Woman has against cis Women is rubbish because they have a heavier skeleton to carry around.

Also you can not compare cats and dogs for one they are two different species and two they have no concept or understanding of any of these things. They are lower life forms.

The Logic is not the same because what you say is not logical at all.

People are able to think and understand there own actions. What is it to you anyway of someone decodes to change there Gender and by the way no one just decides oh ye I know I will change to be a female and become famous because for one it is a long process unless you have lots of money and even then it would take at least12 month's of your life and hormones especially Oestrogen are not something to be taken lightly or to be messed with. They change how you feel and act in the brain too and this can be even more to come to terms with over the physical changes.

Most trans people only change there Gender after they have had a breakdown. I know that is how it was for me and all others I know that are transitioning.

It's not to be taken lightly. Its no walk in the park.

J.O. Farmer · 18-07-2022 02:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353772#Comment_119353772

Are the numbers of transgender people transitioning increasing or staying the same as over the last 50 years. The perception is the numbers are increasing.

If it's increasing then it would be expected the numbers competing would increase.

The other part is can a small number pose a threat to sport. Would you say if there was a small number of dopers that these pose no threat to sport.

You also falsely assume that because someone isn't winning and setting records that an unfair advantage doesn't matter. For example would you say a doper finishing 4th in the Olympics was okay if the top 3 were clean.

Overheal · 18-07-2022 02:37PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353954#Comment_119353954

You’re equivocating trans athletes to dopers now?

Trans persons don’t transition to cheat. This is my turn to call out something highly insulting

18-07-2022 02:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119353933#Comment_119353933

Nobody has said transitioning is a walk in the park. But that's not relevant to the question posed here.

And yes, my point stands. A women's competition exists for biological females; that's why the category exists. We create categories for a reason, and not for those categories to be trampled on by a minority of extreme activists. Biological males, irrespective of whether they've taken hormones or not, do not belong in women's competitions. End of story.

I wish trans people well in their new identity, live and let live, and all that kind of thing.

But when it comes to women's sport and safe spaces, that crosses a red line.

Most importantly of all, many trans people agree with me. You are speaking as if they have a uniform opinion that's shared with you. Many famous trans- people, including the former Olympian herself, Caitlyn Jenner, disagree with you.

Bannasidhe · 18-07-2022 02:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119354038#Comment_119354038

A women's competition exists for biological females; that's why the category exists.

The. Category. does. not. exist.

You are literally making things up.

Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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