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Irish Championship 2022

13

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    IF the rules have to be broken then I'd sooner have 100 over 1900 rated players from anywhere in the world playing than even one player rated 17 something like we have this year.

    I agree with your point but haven't Ukrainian players been given free ICU membership already?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    "It is a closed national championships period"

    NO, it's not. It used to be and indeed it is supposed to be but now it is just an open. I've even been writing Irish Open instead of Irish Championship on my scoresheets every day.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    It is supposed to be a closed national championship....but it is not this year because of the organisers allowing one non IRL player to enter.


    also....I agree with your point but haven't Ukrainian players been given free ICU membership already?

    yes but ICU membership does not allow anyone to play in the national championship...I am sure there are plenty of cases of ICU members that are not IRL registered.


    anyway from the ICU constitution / and eligibility rules at the tip top of the entry requirements....


    General

    1. It is a condition of entry to the Irish Championship that all players accept these terms and conditions.
    2. All participants must be current members of the ​Irish Chess Union (​ICU​) and all entrants to the main week-long event must be registered as IRL with FIDE. Non-IRL players are permitted to entered the other events but may not claim the title of "Irish Champion" in any section. The titles will be awarded to the highest placed IRL player. Prize money will be awarded as stated with no distinction between IRL and non-IRL.


    6 lashes of the whip and all will be forgiven.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    @corkcitychess is quite right, so we await the explanation from the ICU

    btw congrats to Tarun in winning I think his first Irish? It was a dominating performance where he successfully exploited the errors of his opponents quite ruthlessly



  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭Eugene Donohoe


    Congrats to Tarun on his winning The Irish Championship. Thanks to all the players for their games. I thoroughly enjoyed playing through them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Congrats to Tarun for a dominant performance, justifying the faith of the Olympiad selection committee.

    Board order for the olympiad will be an interesting decision now. Alex should probably be board 1 as usual since he has the experience and GM title (and held Karjakin to a draw last time) but maybe Tarun on board 2 to optimise his GM norm chances and because he is clearly on form.



  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    Yes there is simply no excuse or justification for this choice and executive decison. None! 9 days of events that could have seen the player participate in many events. Allowing her (or inviting as I suspect) was wrong and bonkers. As bad is the way ot was done and the players were presented with a fait accomplii only at the very last moments before the event started. Nothing to do with the young woman herself. It is the gate keepers who are at fault and this should not happen again, we got lucky in that it was not any huge effect on proceedings, but if it had bean a 2700 GM , well.....Point is it should not matter who, Only that they be IRL



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    You are speculating there. Until the ICU clarify we don't know the real situation. Its a strange one mind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    We do know as a fact that a player was allowed to play in an event that strictly forbids this player and somebody gave this the ok. As to who and the mechanism yes we don't know yet and maybe never will. Ur right that it should be made known what are the facts, so as to avoid further speculation. For me it is clear this was wrong and no "excuse" would change the fact of it being wrong. Just be useful to know and understand it was allowed to happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Why do you say "maybe never will". I am sure the ICU will respond to clarify, thats their role and what they do.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    looks like the strongest ever team that is going to the Olympiad. It is up to the team captain Carl Jackson to decide the board order...if it was up to me my board order would be

    1 Conor Murphy (rapidly improving and a GM norm already) has played in several GM events and 1 amazing run of 6 draws with 2550+ rated GM opponents

    2 Taran Kanyamarala - Irish Champion!

    3 Alex Baburin

    4 Tom O' Gorman

    5 Mark Heidenfield - 2021 Irish Champion! and gauranteed place on the 2022 Olympiad team


    note boards 1 - 4 all above 2400! and a pretty strong reserve on board 5



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭checknraise


    Surely the team with Baburin(2600), Kelly, Quinn and Collins were much stronger. Did they not beat Poland.

    Board order wise it makes sense for Baburin to be 1. He's ultra solid and experienced and can pick up lots of draws vs other countries top players.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    Good strong team but unlikely to perform much above its ranking. I'm just surprised that we don't have any 1700 rated players on it to encourage the youngsters etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    I think you are getting your results mixed up somewhere.....the team that beat Poland ...arguably Ireland's best ever result was board 1 Kelly (win) board 2 Daly (win) board 3 Mark Heidenfield (draw) and Gerry O' Connell lost a hard fought game

    link here: https://www.olimpbase.org/1998/1998irl.html

    a very long time ago....24 years ago!

    Post edited by corkcitychess on


  • Registered Users Posts: 24 Millwall




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    If you don't like my posts then don't read them. Go and play with yourself instead



  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭Eugene Donohoe


    Very humid today. Looks like some cold showers may be necessary.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24 Millwall


    The year is 2050, the apocalypse is in full swing, zombies roaming the streets. People desperately seeking refuge in a safe haven. GM Sodacat at the entrance demanding that everyone be a minimum of 1900 FIDE to get access into. Everyone else must perish. It's the rules.



  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    Surely you don’t mean the team that lost 4-0 to Poland the last time B Kelly played for Ireland in round 1 of the Dresden Olympiad?


    Surely you confuse the time Ireland beat Poland from the 1998 Elista Olympiad with wins for Kelly and Daly against GM s and a draw by M Heidenfeld against a very strong IM (soon after GM)


     Ireland 2304 2½ : 1½ 2554 Poland


    Kelly 2405        1 - 0 2655 GM Krasenkow

    FM Daly 2295      1 - 0 2545 GM Kempiński

    FM Heidenfeld 2335 ½ - ½ 2490 IM Macieja

    O'Connell, G.2180 0 - 1 2525 IM Markowski.


    As regards Baburin being 2600 when playing for Ireland in an Olympiad? Never happened, ever, but he was 2590 at one (Istanbul 2000 = 22 years ago)


    While the rest of his Olympiads are like this:


    Year   Title   Board  Country    Rating - Player Rating Performance

    2018   GM     1      Ireland      2452 - 2425

    2016   GM     1      Ireland      2487 - 2424

    2014   GM    1    Ireland      2502 - 2359   

    2012   Did not take part.

    2010   Did not take part.

    2008   GM    1   Ireland      2544 - 2386

    2006   GM    1   Ireland       2519 - 2459

    2002   GM     1   Ireland       2580 - 2433

    2000   GM     1   Ireland       2590 - 2593

    1998   Did not take part.

    1996   IM    1   Ireland       2545 - 2416


    Board 1 ahead of Tom (higher rated- up and coming), Tarun (Best current form, upcoming), Conor (generally been on the up in a big way for three years, recent GM norm) ?

    Actually yes he should be Bd 1, but not for the reasons (spurious and wrong in respect of overall perfromance- delcining faster every Olympiad in recent years it seems).

    The reason why he should be Bd1 in my view is as follows:. Bd1 player can only play on one board ever for the duration of the event.. He is the most experienced by far and at his best can play against strongest players with more competency than any Irish player when playing well. Draws with Karajakin and MVL in 2018 and 2016 for example, but has to be considered alongside lack lustre results too.


    The key issue is that he should be used for the team selectively and in a clever way. Rested far more than any other player unless there is a player performing espeicaly badly. I would have him play no more than 7-8, max nine games to give the other players more chances to grown in what willbe the first Olympiad for 3 of the 5 man team.

    The risk of players not doing well at their first Olympiad is very real. The three upcoming players should be played and helped in a particular way (sadly the current team cap is clueless and not suited to any such role, which is fine as it is just a social event about networking and politics. He can't be blamed for being "selected" for no good reasons ahead of far more capable people better suited to the role) with a view to gettting the best out of them and encourage them to be focused and determined to bring their best game and enjoy themselves.


    The place of position 5 in the team is easy and obviously M Heidenfeld who wom his place on the team with his excellent Irish ch win last year. Anybody who wins an Irish is fully deserving of a place on the Olynpiad team, likewise Tom O Gorman deserved his automatic place on the teamd despite actually improving and earning a place by rating anyway since his Irish ch win.

    It is a toss up between Tom and Connor Murphy as to who should be in position 4 and 3. Tom is the highest rated of the whole team and just came Jt third in another very strong Irish ch and has been having good results in recent months (year). I would give him the nod for place 3 and have Conor on place 4 just because his excellent purple patch has passed and his recent results have been much less impressive and inconsistent within the last year and a half or thereabouts. Still a great prospect, but we have little to see of recent months by way of the sort of form that otherwise would see him ahead of Tom or and even Tarun. Given that Tom played in the Irish and was competting to win it going into the last few eounds I think he deserves the nod as the likely results/performance of Conor or Tom are hard to be sure of either way.

    Tarun having just won the Irish ch with a great score and clearly on form he is an excellent position 2 player who can be played in place of Alex in all sort of clever ways. If he gets off to a good dtart and doing well then play him as much as possible and when need be or clever, have him on Bd1. Always should depend on how players are doing to decide the team list for each round and Tarun could be a flexible option for Bd1 and Bd2 alternating and depening on variuous considerations like norm posiblities too.

    Sadly interest in this Olympiad is boubnd to eb consiserably less for all sorts of reasons and the notion suggets that this team is the strongest is just absurd. Far from it. Any Irish team at the moment that does not have Sam Collins and Alex Lopez playing for Ireland can't be the strongest. They are still clearly our two strongest players so if we consider that two places were gone for the Olympiad (correctly) in the persons of Tom and Mark with just three places left, had A Lopez and S Collins been playing then the choice would have been between Alex Baburin anbd Conor Murphy and in that case it would surely have gone (at the time of selection) to Conor so the team would have been. S Collins,A Lopez,Tom O, Conor Murphy and Mark Heidenfeld. No less strong than what we have.

    Tarun has now secured his place on the next Olympiad with the 2022 Irish ch win. As winning the Irish ch is so hard to do that even in advance of an Olympiad a player of a certain calibre will be good enough to be on an Olympiad and the form aspect is only about determining the position of the team in any give year along with other considerations.

    Ironically the rotten and to say the least supect choices made of the so called selection committe and process have been of course overlooked in the lull of Covid chess world since 2020. In particular the choice of Tarun over David Fitzsimons was among the most foul I can recall in a while. Same as he was not selected in 2014 arguably.

    Based on the facts and reasons given for the selections made earlier this year. In the case of the last choice between Tarun and David I don't trust or agree wiuth the so called selctions made at that time in many areas, and I would never, for example, apply for any position for an Olympiad with this crowd in. They have made awful choices and shown so much incompetence and weird petty personal bias which they are supposed to rise above. However on account of the fact that hardly anybody cares anymore about such things and we have so many good players it hardly matters who goes and is "selected" while the other non playing positions too are just a junket for buddies and networking.

    Simply not a big deal and of no import really. Only worth mentioning when people ignorantly try not merely getting their own way,but then also try ram it down peoples throat that it was done correctly or well, when it is cealr that is often, orat least sometimes not ther case at all. I mean I don't want to be so critical of any individual and apologize in adavce for that, but the idea that the same team captain would be given the position again is rather silly. If only because there were simply better candidates who applied. I hasten to add I did not apply for any position myself for the 2022 Olympiad in India, and just as it happens you could niot pay me to go to that Olymiad in any capacity. That is just a personal perspective and I admire and respect all, including the current team captains going to this Olympiad. Wish them the very best along with the layers and hope it goes well for all.

    Anyway back to the specifics of the 2022 selections. Sure if we were selecting a team today Tarun would be given the place with little or no arguments. Instead the awful choice to shaft David stinks as usual with politics, personality issues and petty spite to my mind. Open to correction of course.

    Again, this is to judge by the choice made which was reported on the ICU website at the time. They openly admit that David had the higher rating average for selection purposes, but they decided to overrule this fact and instead give the place to Tarun (the lowerrated) because in their words

    "After careful consideration, Tarun Kanyamarala (2319) was selected ahead of David Fitzsimons (2342), mainly due to the former's recent excellent results"

    The dishonest part is that you can't have it every way. At the time Taurn had great results it is true, but he also had huge reversals, bad results, whereas with David there was little change one way or the other. Considering the sheer activity of Tarun and astounding number of games he has played in recent years and during even covid times, the approach would surely be that like a gambling wheel, at whatever poiint they stop and select this will mean either great gains or great losses potentially. In other words at the time they selcted Tarun he was on the lower side and

    So why did they select the lower rated player? I have my suspicions and think they stink but in the overall schem of things nobody really cares and another player gets shafted by petty minded selection committte personality politics and preferences. To be fair they do also do a lot of work and put in time to serve chess also.So don't to overlook the posotives either.


    I don't trust this committe or the last one as a whole myself but it could be much worse and the bad choices made are not of such signifigance other than to those affected. In other words, David losing his Olympiad place as one example, is the price to be paid by him alone.

    On balance either one of them are great additions to the team, the issue is that once again non objective and bias motives or reasons crept in and rendered some of the choices made sour and wrong.


    Again bearing in mind when the selection was made and the circumstances that pertained.

    By their own admission David was ahead at the time, which is oronic because then Tarun race aaheead and then fell back again. The swings that seen him lose or gain plus 50 plus 89 or minus 50 or minus 95 given here, all only confirm that at the time they made their choiuce they only considered the positives for Tarun at the expense of David who at the time the selction was made was ahead and he had played so many less games compared with Tarun. If they were the same rating its agruable either way, but he was behind David and it was more correct to give David the nod. They didn't and I could have predicted they wouldn't for reasons that have nothing to do with good selections being made in good faith. Thst my view and nope cant prove it beyond the arguments and evidence I have offered here.

    If by chance David had played in the Irish ch and done well or won it? Or Tarun had done badly we would have had still relative silence I suspect. The point is that regardless of how deserving and brilliant Taruns Irish ch win is, he should not (curiously enough) have been selected ahead of David on a point or issue of fairness and correct process.


    July 2022   Available -7.6   

    June 2022   Available -0.6   

    May 2022   Available -14.5   

    April 2022   Available 78.4   

    March 2022   Available -17.6   

    February 2022   Available -55   

    January 2022   Available 20.6   

    December 2021   Available 56.4   

    November 2021   Available 11.6   

    October 2021   Available 33.8   

    September 2021   Available -94.4



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  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    PS sorry about all the TYPOS. Long post lots of little errors but the meaning and intention of the word can be easily guessed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    I said....looks like the strongest ever team that is going to the Olympiad. It is up to the team captain Carl Jackson to decide the board order


    simple maths and current tense (I did not say the strongest team that could go (of course it would be stronger if Collins and Lopez were going)

    top 4 boards mean or average is 2400...without trawling through history I am guessing that this is the highest mean rating we will have ever sent to compete (over 4 boards)..I may be wrong but not by much perhaps...

    Sorry to hear that David got stitched up according to some sources......the line earlier about Tarun winning justifying his selection does indeed sound like a get out of jail card for the selection committee.

    I think Conor , Tom and Tarun should be given the lions share of games as they are the only ones that could get GM norms if they play on top form. Regardless of your opinions regarding the team captains selection (obviously not his fault) it could be a very easy task for the reasons mentioned above regarding norm opps plus covid....5 on the team...% wise odds are high one player will test positive during the event...fingers crossed if that happens it is limited to one player.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    An interesting post by spidersweb who as I predicted returned to form in the Irish Championship. Like racehorses who have won certain races before and who enjoy certain tracks he was bound to play well in the Irish Championship. I for one am always glad when one of our "oldies" does well!!

    Not sure about his assessment of our Olympiad hopefuls and those who were not selected. Having played Tarun and David myself quite a few times I would put Tarun as being slightly stronger and I also think that he is currently stronger than Sam Collins. Alex Lopez hasn't been very active in Ireland for a long time and I haven't played him for ages so I can't comment. If as spidersweb says David was rated higher than Tarun at the time of selection then I think that David should have been selected. Time and time again we are seeing positions on teams and in tournaments being given to players for all sorts of dodgy reasons and sheer bare faced nepotism. The rating list might not be perfect but it is the only fair and transparent yardstick and should be adhered to without exception. It is not as if Ireland is going to win the Olympiad so it doesn't matter whether we field the strongest team or not, what really matters is that the right players are selected for the right reasons.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess



    Current team

    3 Murphy, Conor E IM IRL 2404 1999

    4 O`Gorman, Tom FM IRL 2401 2002

    5 Baburin, Alexander GM IRL 2400 1967

    6 Kanyamarala, Tarun FM IRL 2379 2004

    8 Heidenfeld, Mark IM IRL 2355 1968


    mean rating over 5 boards = 2388


    we have indeed sent stronger teams...

    Bled 2002

    https://www.olimpbase.org/2002/2002irl.html mean rating 2458


    interestingly Paul and John Delaney both won silver medals and have 50% of Ireland's total medal haul between them..the other medals being won by Brian Kelly and Sam Collins


    https://www.olimpbase.org/teams/irl_i11.html









  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    bored lol

    Post edited by corkcitychess on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    ditto :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Well that was a long rant, with some good points.

    I have to agree with you that the selection for the team captain in the Open Olympiad is strange. With all respect to the person concerned, with whom I have the barest acquaintance, surely he is not and never has been an international standard player. He is hardly qualified to decide the board order, choose who plays on which days or give any useful advice. He had better let the team decide amongst themselves and hope there is no argument. No doubt he can carry their drinks.

    Maybe even at this late stage the captains for the Open and Women's teams could be exchanged?

    I have seen a copy of the supposedly objective scoring form the selection committee was supposed to use to make their choice. Was there really just a poor choice of candidates once the venue was moved from Moscow to Chennai?

    I won't comment on your allegations concerning the way the selection of Kanyamarala over Fitzsimons was made, which appear to come close to libel, other than to say the following.

    I have looked at the latter's FIDE rated results (under the individual calculations heading at ratings.fide.com) over the past few years and they are undoubtedly quite solid and consistent, but one thing stood out for me. I had to go back to the FIDE Ratings for March 2017 to find a tournament he played other than in Ireland and the UK, and that was in France.

    No doubt there were good work and/or family reasons why he stopped playing overseas tournaments once he got his IM title (2018). However it looks to me that a diet of local leagues, 4 NCL and a few round-robins is hardly ideal preparation for playing an olympiad, especially in India, where our new Irish champion (who has lived there for part of his short life) is surely going to find acclimatisation much easier than Fitzsimons would, not to mention the fact that in the same 5-year period the young man has played numerous international tournaments abroad.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 285 ✭✭checknraise


    The open team are all the best players in the country. Having a strong player help them prepare might not be needed or appreciated. If you are looking for someone to help their game you would need a strong gm which would cost the icu allot of money. The women's team would usually get more help during the tournament so traditionally have had a stronger player as captain. Carl was captain for the last olympiad and has lots of experience captaining Gonzaga.

    I don't see how where the olympiad is held can have an impact on one's expected results and or selection. David is pretty active and easily fulfills the number of games needed to play.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Plenty of interesting points here, I am back in Barcelona now and without going into it all in too detail, tend to agree you need objective criteria for selection, machines are generally very good, give humans an inch and they will generally mess up without fail.

    Apart from that crack on, enjoying all the insults flying, this is how forums should work!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    I don't buy what Rookspawn says about Tarun playing more international tournaments etc etc. What he is more or less saying is that if someone is in the privileged position of having a coach and being able to travel endlessly to tournaments without having to worry about cost while another has to work at a 9 to 5 job while studying chess in his spare time then the former deserves the place even though the latter still managed to have a title and a higher rating at selection time??? I'm sorry, I like Tarun very much and think he's a fantastic talent but if I was David I'd be raising hell to have been left out and believe me when it comes to hell raising I'm a GM



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    What I dont buy is how anybody related to Gonzaga should be given special treatment.

    Maybe was how I was brought up.

    In Newtownpark we beat them regularly and it kind of made it all the more sweet.

    Mod edit - unsubstantiated rumours clipped

    Post edited by cdeb on


  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    Just read the report? This is not what I think or have imagined it is what they said and done.


    "After careful consideration, Tarun Kanyamarala (2319) was selected ahead of David Fitzsimons (2342), mainly due to the former's recent excellent results"

    Simple point David was shafted. Had they selected a couple of months then depending on if he, Tarun, was on a high = plus 79 but not a minus -95 Tarun would have been selected correctly.

    He was selected for reasons that should have nothing to with any selection, period. It's sad and not Taruns fault either. Makes one wonder how pissed off David will be and maybe why he wants so little to do with Irish chess now? (I am speculating and do not know if this is the case, but I would not blame him for being disgusted and or disulluioned.)

    If all things were equal (and they were not at the time of selection) it should be very obvious that David shoukld get the nod over Tarun for very obvious reasons. Just ask how much he has been a part of Irish chess in so many ways and on so many levels? If one player has the higher rating at the point of selction thats it, good enough.

    Easy choice, but no, they had toi go the extra mile and as it happens shaft David and smile about it in provate no doubt. Again speculation on my part.The choices they made for team caps over the past two Olymiads were also not without absurdness, but during the last few years nobody cares, me neither.

    Just a bit tiring to see the choice not merely made but them trying to have it justified , Team caps far better suited and more qualified people availablke. Instead we have Gonzaga and Gionzaga and last time it was Gonzaga and friends of Gonzaga. If they were the best option so be it, but they were not., Better people were rejected. Thats the point , not that there is so much Ginzaga influence and entaglements, thats fine, and often very good for Irish chess, but when it gets to a certain point it becomes a bit silly and transparent., Carl and Conor are fine lads and there is no critisismm aimed at them. One might be just the way it goes, but two out of two and then... rejecting the other more qualified people? Well overall not a big deal I guess but a bit annoying and disappointing. A bit too much is all I am saying. On the other hand it is the case that ;pts of thrsese people doo good work for chess and that includes the selectors, whom in the context of making these sort of choices I just dont trust them. Just mne and my take and thats all there is too it. Other can disagree and thats fine too. I know all the chracters for more than 30 years and the way these things work in practice. Just sorry to see David shafter AGAIN as he was in 2014? We are are at least spoiuled for choice with so many good players to choose from now.


    There is not strongest team and using ratings to evaluate is no use either. How did a 2190 layer do so well in the Irish and yet also lose to a 1935 player? All useful gudes but an Olymiad team can only be judged on it's actual perforr,amce. Main thing is that if the players are performing well then the three players of Tom , Conor and Tarun should get the most games, but nit if they are not perfroming. the over 50s players have vast experience and can be very solid. Hope the temas all do well but sadly this Olympiad will have some really negative aspects. not least being the fact that neither Chian or Russia won't be there.


    Another rant over!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    I am now convinced the correct board order for the Irish team should be

    1 Murphy

    2 Kanyamarala

    3 O'Gorman

    4 Baburin

    5 Heidenfield

    and presumably if any covid issues O' Donnell can step is as a replacement?

    I would not have a problem if boards 1 and 2 were interchanged but the above board order gives the absolute maximum chance of norms for the 3 norm seekers.

    Baburin should be the anchor on this occasion.(points are points and he will likely get more points on board 4) Also I am sure Carl will be a very capable captain. It is not about being a strong player it is all about being a good leader and sometimes making difficult decisions (I was team captains advisor in 2012 ;) when I advised the captain to drop Sam Collins in the last round so Alex Lopex could get a GM norm if he won on board 1 - Sorry Sam but you know it was the correct decision and I accept 50% responsibility)

    With the above team order it will make the captains job easier...I would also advise playing Baburin and Heidenfield in all the matches with mickey mouse opponents...(teams with silly low averages) to maximise norm chances for the 3 norm seekers.

    It is all about norms...the team position / placing will look after itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    There's a lot of sense in that order suggested by corkcity chess in that it's Conor and Tarun seeking GM norms and Tom needing an IM norm, and they can only raise the rating floor of one "mickey mouse" opponent in the norm calculations.

    So playing both Alexander and Mark against the first weak team we meet does make sense. Especially as it is likely round 2 and makes sure everybody has had a game after two days.

    However it is also possible to discount wins against lower rated opposition in calculating norms.

    There's another way of arranging the team to optimise norm chances and that would be to put Alexander on board 2 and give him as many Blacks as possible. Whether this can work I'm not sure as whoever is on one (Conor or Tarun) would need to play nine games.

    It might depend on how results and pairings go.

    Comparing the performances of Conor and Tarun in the 2022 European Championship (Reykjavik) does tend to show that Conor is more stable and suitable for board one if Alex doesn't take top board. But I was watching some of Tarun's early games live on chess24 in that event and others this year. He is well capable of getting winning positions against GMs with White. His problem then (and in some other events) was clock-handling. His Irish Championship performance tended to show he is getting that under control now and he may be better than Conor at playing for a win with Black in matches against lesser teams.


    I have confidence Tom can win many games on board 3/4 if he is played in the right matches.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 383 ✭✭macelligott


    The Olympiad:

    The main thing that will effect the Ireland team results will not be board order but the health of the players.

    Chennai will be hot in August and it is well documented that Europeans travelling to India in hot weather frequently suffer tummy problems.

    It would be wise to look carefully at any medical advise available.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    I presume that Aronian will be playing for the mercenary USA team despite being a national hero in Armenia and having won the Olympiad as an Armenian before? It really makes a mockery of international sport when you have players being allowed to swap nationalities/ affiliations especially when there is no parental basis for doing so. Gibson Park, Lowe, Bundee Aki, Carbery playing for Ireland, Rybakina representing Kazakstan, So and Aronian playing chess for USA, Diego Costa playing for Spain. In the Bejing Olympics under the American flag there was a kayaker from Poland, table tennis players from China, a triathlete from New Zealand, a world-champion distance runner from Kenya and a gold-medal-winning equestrian from Australia. Surely the whole purpose of international sport is to compare the talents of different nationalities? I can understand a player being given a choice between his/her country of birth and that of both his/her parents but after that it just becomes ridiculous. Another downside of this identity swapping is that home grown players in every sport are denied their rightful places on national teams because these places are being taken by imports.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    FIDE has announced the 187 teams for the open olympiad and162 in the women's but the composition of the teams is not yet declared officially

    https://www.fide.com/news/1843

    As I understand it, the American team in the open olympiad will consist of Caruana (born in USA but lived abroad much of his life), Aronian (born in Armenia), So (born in Philippines), Dominguez Perez (born in Cuba) and Shankland, the sole home-grown team member.

    Nakamura (who was born in the USA) chose not to be available, I believe. The irony is that if he were playing they might have to put him on board 1 after all, following his Grand Prix and Candidates results, whereas before his classical comeback he probably feared it would be board 4 or nothing.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the USA women's team also includes some players born in the former USSR or countries that were part of the USSR before their birth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    I don't know how true it was but I remember hearing that the Irish team sat beside the USA team at breakfast during an Olympiad many years ago and none of the USA team could speak English.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    Typical sodacat humour! Might have been true of their women's team if Irina Krush was missing. But now they have new young talent like Jennifer Yu and Carissa Yip who despite their oriental sounding surnames are all-American girls.

    Looking again at that FIDE list, I see that Ireland's Open team are provisionally 60th seeds which implies a first round pairing against the likes of San Marino or Bermuda. So I expect that Carl in his wisdom will be resting one of his GM norm candidates in round 1 and putting out the top four in round two.


    The ladies are seeded 51 and as things stand would meet Bermuda in round 1, coached by GM Nigel Davies. So I imagine Conor will let Trisha sit that one out since she just needs to gain 30 rating points for her FIDE Master title. No harm to blood the relatively inexperienced reserve against that opposition.

    Seedings can change, though, when the players actually turn up and captains confirm the line-up of their teams.

    BTW I actually agree with Gerry that health issues could be crucial. Maybe in their Chennai hotel everything will be fine but it's not just what you eat and drink. When I was in a poorer part of south Asia some years ago, the rule was only brush your teeth using bottled water that had been purified by reverse osmosis.

    Note also there is an Irish arbiter going to Chennai: FA Colm O Muireagain, who ran the recent Sligo congress. So good luck to him too.

    Finally, maybe we should be starting a separate Olympiad thread once the team travel?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Indeed, when I had to travel to India for work purposes it was recommended to get various shots, which I assume the team are aware of.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭zeitnot


    Re RooksPawn's comment above, "I imagine Conor will let Trisha sit that one out since she just needs to gain 30 rating points for her FIDE Master title":

    I thought that Trisha had already passed 2300 in live ratings. She was 2299 in the February 2020 list, and from the calculations for that month (https://ratings.fide.com/calculations.phtml?id_number=45004722&period=2020-02-01&rating=0), I think she lost points right at the end (v. either Matthew Turner or Simon Williams). (I am unclear on exactly what constitutes a live rating when there are multiple tournaments that overlap, but I don't think it makes a difference here.) She easily had the required 30 rated games at that point.

    It's entirely possible I'm missing something, but what?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭RooksPawn


    You could well be right. I guess her main interest is to get to 2400 and try to pick up IM norms, though there may be little chance of the latter at Chennai as she may not meet enough opponents with the title.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    I said that a long time ago but seems I was wrong, are we still waiting on the ICU to clarify? 🤔



  • Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭spidersweb


    "You are speculating there. Until the ICU clarify we don't know the real situation. Its a strange one mind."


    "We do know as a fact that a player was allowed to play in an event that strictly forbids this player and somebody gave this the ok. As to who and the mechanism yes we don't know yet and maybe never will. Ur right that it should be made known what are the facts, so as to avoid further speculation. For me it is clear this was wrong and no "excuse" would change the fact of it being wrong. Just be useful to know and understand it was allowed to happen."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    I'm not sure the meaning of this, why defend the ICU, we are the members, we pay our fees so as they do as we say. Its not the other way around.

    Still we are waiting an answer which is not exactly confidence inspiring.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    Maybe someone can ask what happened at the AGM? Did the organisers decide to co host the Irish and Ukrainian chess championships in Dublin? I think they should have consulted the membership before making that unilateral decision.


    I would like to be the first to congratulate the two champions.

    Tarun Kanyamarala 2022 Irish chess champion

    Diana Mats 2022 Ukrainian chess champion



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    Indeed, but it shouldnt really be necessary to need an AGM question on this, the ICU PR officer should be way ahead of it. All we have had so far is silence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 479 ✭✭Joedryan


    I missed the AGM, saw there was a zoom call but was on the golf course, or on the way there I think, saw it afterwards.

    Anybody know was this addressed?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,300 ✭✭✭sodacat11


    All the fuss about a foreign national playing in the Irish Championship yet I am always alone in complaining about people who don't qualify by rating getting in.

    On the one hand we have a young woman who had to flee her country because it was being invaded by murderers, rapists and sadists. If that isn't extenuating circumstances I don't know what is. We should show some compassion. Diana is a very welcome addition to our chess scene as far as I'm concerned, she plays in the league and she supports many of our tournaments, probably a lot more than some of the people complaining about her.

    On the other hand we have solely chess considerations and players who are not qualified by rating to play in the Irish Championship devaluing the tournament and ruining the enjoyment of some other legitimate players by being permitted to play. Kilkenny is on next month, my rating has dropped below the threshold so I've entered the lower section where I now belong. If someone with a very decent record over more than four decades like me can happily enter a "lower" section I don't see why young upstarts who have done nothing yet in chess cannot do the same.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭corkcitychess


    yes I raised it at the end in any other business and made it very clear it must never happen again....the only reaction was the chair saying..."noted"



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