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Right to a house?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,814 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...exactly, this is potentially where we re heading back to, whereby the majority of the ownership of assets, in particular related to property and land, becomes heavily concentrated, only this time the owners are larger businesses, corporations, institutions, such as financial institutions, i.e. banks, etc etc

    yes, financialsation has become one of the main tools of such political ideologies, i.e. so called neoliberal ideologies, i.e. empower major sectors of the economy such as the fire sectors(finance, insurance and real estate), disempower the political system, and the work force, and happy happy days!

    its always important to remember, central banks can actually never truly run out of money, but there are limits to how much debt your economy can take, but we have become over reliant on the private sector money supply, i.e. the credit supply, whos main purpose has now become to inflate asset markets via speculation etc, this in turn has caused a rapid rise in private debt, of which is now playing a far more critical role in our economic crisis, including in creating them, i.e. 08!

    the only way to counteract this is by becoming more reliant on public money supplies, i.e. public debt, and truly to start enacting wide scale debt forgiveness programs, particularly in the private domain, i.e. private debt, but the reality is, this is very unlikely to occur, so, we re stuck.....

    we clearly need to ramp up the supply of public housing, but these properties should never be allowed to be sold into the private market, we must implement measures to protect such tenents, but also implement measures to protect potential buyers, and even sellers in the private market, none of that is easy to do, and i also suspect these measures may never occur, so again, we re stuck, in a rapidly deteriorating situation for most, if not all!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If there is no shortage of an item then nobody will bid it up. Income will not factor. Shifting from single to dual incomes gets thrown out as an explanation regularly but it is not the answer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    People in the 90s were upwardly mobile as well. They just the same as now wanted to live in bigger nicer houses in nice areas so bidding up happened. People normally are taking the max amount a bank will lend them to get the best possible house. The amount the bank would lend them increased significantly ergo...



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,814 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78



    .....and this to becomes a default of such approaches, the entity we call 'the market' has determined that reducing supply will lead to an increase in financial outcomes, i.e. maximizing returns!



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Except that is all overblown and not true. How much property is owned by private business compared to private home owners? People like to go on about rent only properties but they don't have much of the market at all last time i looked it was less than 2% of the rental market not even all housing.

    Companies are not buying up existing houses and renting them they are developing property and providing accommodation that wouldn't exist. A few full purchases of entire building projects are 1 or 2 but people like to thing it is everything being built. Just isn't true

    I will accept some people are talking about it as if it is the thin edge of a wedge but the problem with that it requires a very long time and the disappearance of existing housing stock.

    Within the next 10+ years how much of the housing occupied by OAPs will come to the market? The building boom of the 70-80s are going to come back on the market at some time and the residents are dying and will continue to do so. Those houses are actually too big for many people to either afford or live in so the houses will be split up. See it on my own road with 5 houses already done. The same thing happened to the large Georgian houses in Dublin. This is a natural evolution of housing stock. Happen in all cities in the western world as they expand.

    There are many things that can change and will change that people don't even consider. Society has dramatically changed and 3 bed houses don't suit modern needs. Lots of single people now compared to the past and they aren't becoming priests and nuns as they once would have. So much more to change and housing costs are just a factor. Looking back at parents and grandparents housing options only and ignoring the limited choices they had misses lots. WFH for many jobs will change the very nature of housing demands dramatically and we have to see what happens there.

    Lets be clear the standard of living has dramatically improved even in my life time let alone my parents. Harking on about the good old days is and ignoring the improvements from then is convenient. In the old days if you had a child out of wedlock you had the child taken off you and possibly sold and put into a form of slavery. Now you get state aid and housing. In fact so is the father. I know a couple that had 2 kids together and broke up. She has a 3 bedroom house, one room for her and one for each child. He has a 3 bed house too as it is one room for him and one for each child because they have shared custody. That is a huge amount of extra supports that have costs than the good old days.

    What do you want to happen? Do we reduce social welfare programs and only focus on better use to help more people or keep trying for the better standards? As I said there is technically only one person living next door to me in a 3 bed house with 2 careers changing over on days to another 2. Before that it was 4 adults and 3 children which wouldn't be allowed under social housing policies. You can't ignore the standards and practices that have a higher demand for social housing are not part of the issue.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,814 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    apologies, im very busy right now, so i ll try properly respond when i can, but we have convinced ourselves that we re increasing our ownership of assets, only that its truly becoming more concentrated, particularly via our financial systems, via credit/debt creation, theres sufficient evidence of this globally, including here in ireland, baring in mind, debtors only truly own an asset when all debts are fully paid, until this criteria is met, the assets are primarily the owners of creditors, until then, debtors have whats called 'a claim on the ownership' of such assets, but arent full owners!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    The funds own a tiny percentage of residential properties here and most of which wouldn't exist in the first place without them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,814 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ....but the potential is now there, for them to gain access to more and more, as they have more abilities to do so, including wide scale state and other institutional protections



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Its basic economics 101 supply V demand. There is still a lack of supply....in your example...a shortage of supply of good houses



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    I don't think anybody thinks we have increased our homeownership i thought it was common knowledge that we had the highest rate of homeownership in the world and that has decreased. It was inevitable that would change as we improved and came closer to European norms.

    For a bank to reposes a house in Ireland is very difficult and one of the issues we have with banking competition and high interest rates. It is a bad play on words and financial terms to say the banks own your house until you have paid it off. If the house increases in value by 10% the bank have no entitlement to that as you are seen as the owner. You are playing very fast an loose terminology and common terms to make an argument that just is not how it is. You own your home and you have a debt is the reality you don't get to say the bank owns the house because they don't no matter how you look at it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    As I explained it isn't because to get 50% of the housing market they would have to built a 100% of what exists already and nobody to be build anything else.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]



    Funds bought 57% of new homes in 2019

    Investment funds bought over 5,800 homes in Dublin in 2019 at a cost of €2.4bn, with 57% of all new builds in the capital snapped up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,324 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    That's not really true.


    My sister married a Scotsman and they live in Glasgow and have two daughters finishing secondary school now.

    I was asking her the other day what they are going to do when they finish Uni and her answer was buy apartments or houses. She says they are not expensive even in the city by comparison to Ireland or Dublin specifically so she has no concerns. I accept that Glasgow isnt London, Dublin or New York but it is a pretty major english speaking city where accommodation isnt out of reach (as long as you dont mind a lot of rain!).

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,324 ✭✭✭✭Supercell


    The UK is absolutely relevant, our GDP figure is absolutely not equivalent to the UK due to corporation taxation differences.

    If you look a median income however you will see we are almost EXACTLY the same as the UK, see for yourself - https://www.finfacts-blog.com/2019/04/irish-median-income-at-13th-in-europe.html

    Have a weather station?, why not join the Ireland Weather Network - http://irelandweather.eu/



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    So your niece is going to become a property developer and landlord straight as she buys "houses"? There aren't many people who can buy a house straight out of college so where is she going to get this money? Glasgow is not a major English speaking city and is of course cheaper than Dublin. I had a look at property prices there and I am not seeing anything amazingly cheap but I would also need to understand the areas there to even vaguely compare Dublin prices to Glasgow. Then compare employment prospects which is a huge factor and we can be pretty sure Glasgow doesn't have anything close to the financial and IT sectors that Dublin has. So comparing the 2 is pretty silly to start with. Have you looked at our population distribution?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,284 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    It would be fair to say we have as near to an open door approach as exists.


    Certainly well past the level where affordable housing, social housing etc can be a sustainable thing or meet demand, as for a right to a home,lol.


    To have that one would have to have one of the strictest borders in existence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    No it wouldn't be fair at all. Why do you think there is an open door policy is the question? You need to explain why you think this not just state it. There are rules of migration and EU membership how do you get to there is no migration control?



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,284 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Re-read my post. I didn't say we have no control.


    We have a large inward migration, same as any ultra free market economy.


    It's certainly at a level that is incompatible with housing as a right, wage inflation, unions etc, increased public services.


    Is your approach workable in a world where energy is no longer cheap, where borrowing is no longer cheap and business is operating in a more unstable world.


    It's very different to the Reagan and Thatcher world now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    So they are needed, larger apartment blocks won't be built without their cash.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,284 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    At 250 Euro a cubic metre of n30 concrete, no one is going to be building anything.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,461 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    Supply is part of it but he asked about the rapid price increases and increased debt in the 90s, that was down to affordability not so much supply drying up. There could be huge left over supplies of Bentleys, but no average worker will still afford one. Same as the average worker in the 90s couldn't afford a house in Dalkey even if many were up for sale.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You said "near to an open door policy" to be 100% correct. Can you explain how you mean that and what is the proof of such an outlandish claim?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    The uk economy is getting devastated by brexit, theres no major tech sector in glasgow, i would expect house prices to be cheaper there. the 3.5 lending rule was brought in to stabilize the banking sector, after the crash in 2008. its there for a reason ,do you think it would help you to buy a house if everyone could borrow 5 times their salary, no ,it would just make it easy for people to borrow more.take on excessive debt. it turns out bankers cannot be trusted to lend in a safe manner unless theres lending regulations in place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 591 ✭✭✭the butcher




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,338 ✭✭✭Bit cynical


    Sure I am! I am cynical about various politicians opposing international investment in the housing sector in Ireland. I feel that it suits them to maintain a permanent crisis situation by maintaining a shortage of units being built.

    I'm also cynical about the benefit of small amateur landlords who still dominate the rental market. While this situation persists, you will never have the sort of stable market where long-term rentals can occur as is the case in other countries.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,261 ✭✭✭Gant21


    Where are you pulling yourself that figure from?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    I see a problem in that investors are competing with the public to buy new houses, this puts up house prices , investors can pay low taxs versus small Irish landlords. I don't think any politicans want the present housing crisis to continue , they have friends and family children who will need somewhere to live in the future. This is a very negative cynical view of Politicans. Ordinary workers can't compete with billion dollar corporations.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Home ownership is and should be the goal. Ireland did foreign ownership of its property before. Foreign ownership is a terrible idea.

    Once upon a time the home ownership rate was something western governments tried to boost for many well known reasons. It benefited society.

    As mentioned already it's all about profit and rent seeking. Accommodation costs are a huge take from our wages. Increasing foreign ownership is suicide for an economy because it diverts that money outside of the economy. How blind can you be not to see that. At least with irish landlords the Money has more of a chance to cycle through the irish economy. Nevertheless ownership is key rather than have someone pay for a lifetime when they could have bought and had no payments in retirement

    If you are a political hack or a hack for a vulture fund at least disclose it.

    There is no reason for an irish person to take a positive position on a vulture fund unless you have a kickback or your head is full of moss, rocks or fungus



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,112 ✭✭✭✭y0ssar1an22


    does everyone have a right to a house?

    if so, happy days. more kids, more houses.

    there needs to a serious discussion about the welfare state here judging by evidence on here.



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