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Civil Service - Post Lockdown - Blended Working?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Still unclear how your potential pension if you do take a civil service job is relevant to a the thread on post-lockdown blended working?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Agreed they would need to declare it. And Data Protection Officers generally seem more on top of the law than, say, their FOI equivalents. I doubt any department would want to be the first to have been found to be illegally monitoring their employees!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    and kept it quiet through any such deployment except for whispers?


    file under bollocks tbh



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,962 ✭✭✭billyhead


    I heard it might not be illegal monitoring but staff are aware of the software. It would tell the manager how long you have been away from your PC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,308 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    Its nonsense. civil service PCs and laptops can barely run office never mind secret spying software



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,492 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    ..

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,452 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It's not just staff would have to be aware of it. They would have to declare it in their privacy policy. They'd have to specify what data they are holding, for what purpose, for how long and more.

    There would have been uproar from trade unions, privacy advocates, staff themselves (and each manager using the data will be the staff member who's data is going to their own manager).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    We're up to 89 responses so far, but only 9 of those are from someone working where an official blended working policy has been published.

    I'll leave this open until Tuesday 31st.

    https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1KNlYHF0Z7rtCElZoQ0ex34HyKltprjzzQPxtmVKyAzs/



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭lightspeed


    When is it expected that there will be an update from forsa on any potential salary increase?

    Are they due to meet with government again and this likely to drag out weeks or how does it usually work?



  • Registered Users Posts: 890 ✭✭✭doc22



    You used the wrong calculator new entrants are on the single scheme(far less generous)


    And you gave yourself 11 years extra service to bring service to 40 years


    The 3/4 is the fact you will only have served 30 of the require 40 years for full pension.....


    The excel calculator for 30 years service and starting as HEO with career pay increases and inflation adjustments assumes a current value pension of


    Post edited by doc22 on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,492 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Wow that's amazingly shít!

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users Posts: 35 onlydaughter30


    Hey ,does anyone know what the blended arrangement (if any) is in the Data Protection Commission? The Laois Office

    thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    It would but the knives would be out. And ye would be worse off in the end.



  • Registered Users Posts: 97 ✭✭Ahshurlookit




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭NapoleonInRags


    I think you were a bit premature with the survey- given that most bw policies are still being negotiated - the deadline is end June.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid



    It's true. Nothing in the history of the world has ever been achieved by workers taking industrial action.

    • Pay deaks
    • the five-day working week - not to mention the imminent four-day working week
    • security of employment
    • annual holidays and public holidays
    • health and safety legislation
    • things like TUPE and the Working Time Directive?

    All of those things we have now are a direct result of our employers being all-round decent skins, and nothing else.

    🙄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Actually it appears many BW policies aren't being negotiated with unions or Partnership Committees (over 75% of respondents so far answered 'don't know', 10% saying union involved, 6% saying no union involvement). So either unions aren't involved much, or they're being really poor at communication.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    Don’t forget the court of public opinion. It would reopen the public vs private sector debate. And those hard won better working conditions were in many cases driven by the private sector.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,709 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    I have a fairly strong view on this one.

    The court of public opinion will always fall down against public servants. Public servants considered "fair game" when it comes to social media group, the more official print media and TV media, and more disappointingly in my view when it comes to public pronouncements by politicians. You rarely if ever hear politicians having anything good to say about public servants.

    There is a big big disparity between the realities of a public sector career, and the common stereotypes.

    So if your concern is the court of public opinion, then you are on to a guaranteed loser.

    However - right now, we have an extremely hot labour market. We have high inflation And we have public sector wages that are simply not moving. It is a fact that a very high amount of public servants, could - if they actually thought about it - walk into higher paid jobs in private sector.

    And at this point, therefore its a choice of either pay people more or watch them leave.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    This!

    There are plenty of government bodies using agency staff right now because they can't attract permanent staff. That's at ordinary admin grades, too, not just senior staff. I mean, just look further up the thread where someone has a HEO job offer and is hemming and hawing about taking it. When it gets to specialist and senior staff, it's a joke. Head of Cybersecurity for major agencies or, in fact, the whole country - expected to sit down with Secretaries General and Ministers to tell them their setup isn't up to the task - and we'll pay them around the same as a private sector senior dev. Just with vastly more responsibility.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,492 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    The court of public opinion thinks we should either be all sacked, or work for free 🙄

    Scrap the cap!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not only should we work for free, but I remember a thread here recently where someone was insisting that civil servants should not be reimbursed for mileage and should pay their own food and travel costs from their own pocket, when travelling for official business.

    Crazy stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    Yet when you look at benchmarking and how many in power waited in the long grass to punish - it is arguable that benchmarking was worse for public servants in the medium term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭JoeSexton


    We've been told that it will be at least 4 more weeks until our BW policy will be signed off. Then there will be an application process which will no doubt take several more weeks (at least) to get through.



  • Registered Users Posts: 35 onlydaughter30




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    I'm sure there's a "Masochism for people who don't actually like physical pain" thread over on After Hours?

    Yeah, I would have been much better off not getting a pay rise in Benchmarking I that put me on roughly the same as a private sector employee (not really, I was working in I.T.) for those several years before austerity hit. No, wait... no, I actually wouldn't have been! I just wouldn't have got the extra pay for those couple of years and still would have gotten pay freezes, pay cuts, extra hours and the loss of some flexi benefits when FF fucked up the economy for everyone for the second time in living memory.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,325 ✭✭✭cuttingtimber22


    Well I was a public servant in that period - my opinion is valid and I suffered those pay cuts. Part of the mess the economy was in back in 2008 was the high level of current expenditure and a narrow tax base combined with a massive global recession and the banks having lost the run of themselves.

    And I don’t want to get into a public v private sector pissing contest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,082 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Yup, I'm aware of the global recession and the banking crisis - and the warning signs, the people warning it was going to happen really soon and the likes of Bertie saying the people giving the warnings should commit suicide. Then after the crash we were told "everyone partied."



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    blended working, anyway



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,492 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    What's always conveniently forgotten about is the 1.5% a year public sector pay deals in the years leading up to benchmarking, when the cost of living was racing ahead...

    Scrap the cap!



  • Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭BhoyRayzor


    We were told details would be given mid May and online system live from June for applications on WFH. Still nothing and could be September at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 35 onlydaughter30


    My manager told me that the portal is completed now. I didnt ask anything about it or how he knew.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11 PrettyVisitor58


    Hi, does anyone know if the DSP specifically Intreo offices are in the office full time or is it blended?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭Burgo


    I have heard that the NSSO portal is a steaming pile of manure, and that our department are creating their own booking system for WFH applications and H&S checks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,269 ✭✭✭NapoleonInRags


    Doesn’t change my point that the survey is too early.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭Burgo


    Yeah its not as if another survey couldn't be run in a few weeks months..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    or that one was run a few months back


    or that it might be useful and interesting to poll at various stages and see how attitudes change


    or that someone organised a poll and ran it off their own bat and by god its pretty fuckin irish to turn around after and say "id have done it this way" without ever having bothered your arse



  • Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭square ball


    Blended in the one I'm in, except for staff in the Ukraine Support Hub. Most of the staff that requested remote working moved onto NPT, processing online applications and are working full time from home and some are blended but their choice for the most part.

    I had been working 3/4 days a week at home in Activation.

    My manager sent an email at 17.45 to say I was due in the office the following day to meet customers which I only saw when I logged on at 9am at home and I haven't worked from home since.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,492 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    What a knob... there's a reason people are queueing up to get out of DSP, I know people who turned down a promotion rather than move to DSP and I'd never work there again that's for sure.

    Scrap the cap!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This was discussed earlier in the thread, and is the kind of behaviour by managers that I would have a massive problem with.

    Not only was that email sent at the very end of the official working day, (strategically, I suspect) but it puts the report in a very difficult position.

    Outside of their routine attendance pattern, if someone is to be asked to attend the office, they should receive maximum possible notice, preferably a minimum of 24 hours, but at least before lunctime of the day before. No ifs, buts or excuses for lack of notice, unless there is an actual real live EMERGENCY.

    In my view, it reflects very badly on the ethos and management skills of any manager who would pull that kind of stunt, and would have me running for the nearest available exit point.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    ive heard from various sources that DSP were a major blocker in getting agreement across all depts originally on blended working and return to work.


    understandable on one side because so much of their work still demands face to face etc but thats where DPER had to show some bollocks but unsuprisingly let it just drag on.


    for other depts it seems to be Sec Gen preference driving how it works.


    id presume that in the medium term the sec gens who drag people in because they like the look of a nice full office will, between mobility and simply never getting anyone to sign the contract from a panel ever again, soon be looking at emptier offices than they ever dreamed of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭square ball


    It can be extremely frustrating, the work is varied and interesting but management at the top don't understand how the system works so have made life in Intreo centres very difficult for staff.

    They knew by 8.30 that morning that we were required and she emailed after we were offline instead of phoning us. It is my 5th time being seconded from my 'normal' role in 18th months. I signed up for the role because I was sick of being moved through Covid.

    Is there any talk of pro rata Flexi if someone has to go into a public office a few days a week? I've seen people working 9/10 hour days when they were on reception because they stayed on after to clear work they didn't have time to do at the counter and because they are on a blended pattern they end up losing the extra time.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    @[Deleted User]

    id presume that in the medium term the sec gens who drag people in because they like the look of a nice full office will, between mobility and simply never getting anyone to sign the contract from a panel ever again, soon be looking at emptier offices than they ever dreamed of.

    THIS.

    I've already heard of people running to make mobility applications and within my own section and Dept (despite being one of the more progressive ones) there have been a number of resignations.

    Folks just aren't prepared to go backwards to pre-covid working conditions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,182 ✭✭✭ondafly


    @TaurenDruid Thanks for doing the survey - but I'm curious about the ICT part - "What is your organisation's official policy right now, on blended working for most staff (not counting public offices, facilities, ICT staff)?"

    Are ICT departments/staff getting alternative WFH scenarios to the rest ? because without ICT there wouldn't be any WFH :)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    @square ball

    Is there any talk of pro rata Flexi if someone has to go into a public office a few days a week? I've seen people working 9/10 hour days when they were on reception because they stayed on after to clear work they didn't have time to do at the counter and because they are on a blended pattern they end up losing the extra time.

    Accrual of flexi hours has been the other big stumbling block in getting the final WFH policies put in place, and why it was left out of the DPER policy before publication. The plan now is for two pilot schemes to be trialed in different departments - one pilot where flexi hours can be accrued when and employee is both WFH and WFO, and another where only employees WFO can accrue flexi hours.

    But any extra hours accrued up to this point in time, I would consider them lost. (Unless you have grounds to apply for time-in-lieu).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    I can’t understand the fuss about flexi to be honest. It’s a no brainer. Get rid of flexi to be allowed work from home.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭Sarn


    It all depends on what your workload is like. For us, with various deadlines to meet, you could find yourself doing a lot of extra hours in order to get the work done at times. That wasn’t a problem when you knew you could take the time back as flexileave during a quieter period. It was a way to manage peaks and troughs in workload.

    The goodwill has started to run out. If people start sticking to their hours deadlines and targets will be missed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,812 ✭✭✭Addle


    Are people complaining? Being vocal to their Union reps? Colleagues giving out in our place, but no one actually doing anything about it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That is an example of where time / leave-in-lieu should apply.

    I worked literally hundreds of extra hours during the last two years that I didn't get flexi credit for, but on a few occasions when I knew in advance that I would have to put in extra long days to meet a deadline that would involve me working outside of regular working hours, or attending an extra day that week (I work a 4 day week) I applied to my manager in advance and got approval to claim time-in-lieu. This can either be paid or taken as leave. (I take it as leave).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭Sarn


    In our place time-in-lieu was stopped when flexileave was suspended. They viewed it as circumventing the directive from DPER.



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