Fall of the Catholic Church

For me, the RCC is a business. It does not like competition, it's sole purpose for existence is to perpetuate it's own survival. I'll never forget reading in church as a child (12ish) the bit at the back of the pamphlet handed out to everyone, it read something along the lines, 'copyright roman catholic church Ltd.' I presume there is still a similar statement on church documents handed out in church.

Exemples I’ve experienced:

1. Being called “the heathen down the back” by a teacher when I asked to sit out religion classes in secondary school.
2. Being threatened by a priest in primary school because I didn’t go to mass. I was taken aside and told “If you don’t go to mass you won’t be allowed to make your confirmation. If you don’t make your confirmation you won’t be allowed to go secondary school and the what will you do?! I used to get quizzed by this guy about the gospel at mass to the point that I had to find out what the gospel was and how to fake that I had been to a church.
3. Endless prayers at school. We had an Irish and maths teacher in secondary school who started every class by getting everyone to stand up and say the Our Father in Irish and bolloxed me out of it when I was about 17 for refusing to participate.
4. I was given detention for refusing to go to a school mass.

and before the “down the country” brigade jump in. That was in suburban South County Dublin in the very late 1990s.

I completely disagree, Western culture is largely formed through Christianity.

You can see the same effects in other large regions of the world.

Universalistic morality is a complete impossibility without a lens. You can't condemn executions in China unless you have a starting point; in this case, the morality you absorbed from your surroundings. (USA is an outlier in this instance, to be fair). It's only wrong to you because you think differently, and you think differently because of where you grew up, and where you grew up is shaped by its own religion.

The very reason you are "allowed" to have little time attached to it is itself a result of Christianity. You wouldn't get near the same leeway elsewhere.

We are what we are because of Christianity, and everything revolves around that fact, whether you hate it, love it, aren't bothered and so on. The centrepiece is Christianity. Or, as seems to be a popular statement these days, "tell me you aren't a product of Christianity without mentioning Christianity."

It's one or the other in terms of moral leadership, and there's a lot to be argued in favour of a leadership that allows you to argue in the first place. Better the devil you know ;)

Problem? Go back far enough in time and the church would kill you for translating it's texts into english, or any other language for that matter. The point I'm making is that in essence it's a business, like any other. The difference being that it seeks to influence govt. policy and manipulate society in a manner that benefits itself.

Nothing wrong with my comprehension, thanks.

Keeping it simple. I was referring to Christianity as it stands today. Of course it was different at different times. As it stands today, it is a very tame and amenable source of unity in morality, everything being relative, other idealogies in comparison.

Universalism is impossible without bias. Even the most basic tenets of life, such as "do not kill" are not universal. It all depends, and anything that depends is not universal by definition. It's as simple as that.

You say that people largely aren't robots. I completely disagree, they are robots, sheep.

You give me enough influence in the west, with it's freedom, and I'll have educated, well-intentioned people walking all on fours within 20 years if I choose. And they'll congratulate each other on enlightenment, self-police and enforce it on others.

Education? Intelligence? Has nothing to with anything.

This is a planet where the nuttiest of the nuttiest has large following, and I'm talking recently. Those flat-earthers? Blast from the past, that one. Drinking bleach challenges.

People do what they're told and follow the trend, no matter what they may be. It's a necessity of society, and the instructions need only be delivered correctly. For that difference of opinion, I doubt there's much else to say.

Religion, by any other name, is never leaving us.

Christianity has formed all we are, and were it to go, some other religion of belief will take it's place. So again, I prefer the devil you know.

It might not be apparent, but if you remove Christianity from something, some other religion will take it's place. Doesn't have to be called a religion, but it'll be a system of someone elses belief being equally imposed/taught on children in schools.

Look at America and the blossoming belief war in it's schools. It's one or the other, a void is impossible.

I just don't believe such a thing is impossible. It's like removing a heart and putting in another lung, it doesn't work that way with the body, or society.

Look at America and the blossoming belief war in it's schools. It's one or the other, a void is impossible.

As a separate point, do you think it would be easier to have cooperation and direction within a group 90% of the same creed, or a group composed of 15 different random ideas and beliefs? How do people group together? How have people always grouped together? Belief.

A unifying moral system will always be in place, a societal necessity, it's only a question of which one. People thinking some kind of Star Trek future lies ahead with logic and reasoning and everyone's a perfect idealogue, just remember there are sentient intelligent human beings drinking bleach for fun right now.

Oh theyre teaching beliefs, it just isn't obvious yet.

You cannot have a void of belief in society. It's one thing or the other.

I'm speaking to something much bigger and complicated.

There's some philosophical cycle associated with such things.

We all do the same thing together for the sake of a unified society and feel-goods.

Then it gets a bit old, complacency sets in, "I can't be bothered, you do what you want".

Disruption and moral voidance, anything goes, people's heads are wrecked in the ensuing free for all. Society wanes.

Lastly the people seek out unity and understanding and belief again to escape demoralisation, to form another common society, and for that another religion is needed.

In other words, you not wanting to give a nephew a fiver for a communion is bringing about the apocalypse. Stop that!

:P

"There's no relationship between morality, ethics and traditional churches. It's not difficult in the slightest to have morality and ethics without religion".

Right.

That's why you'll have random Christian's in the world believing it's okay to stone women, random atheists preaching Islam, random Muslims believing that women should go topless on the beach. That happens all the time, because morality isn't related to belief. *Borat voice* not!

Everyone thinks they're on the side of fact and sense, except for the people who don't.

For example, you state lgbtq as some kind of fact of reality, yet would you, in an alternate reality, be believing that as person in a Muslim society? Or if you were to compare your belief of facts to the rest of the world, you'd find yourself in one of the very, very few places on Earth thats behind lgbt and that's hardly universal here either.

Everyone thinks reality backs their personal beliefs, but not everyone can be right. Impossibility.

So no, the idea that morality is completely separable and independent from religion (or anything of widely held belief) is a daydream made to personally suit.

They will be in two camps, those who don't care and find it bothersome from an effort point of view, and those who see it as antithetical to their own personal beliefs and pursuit of lifestyle.

The commonality between the two types is selfishness. One in general, one specific. They couldn't give a rats about anything or anyone else, no matter what they say.

They fit nicely into that cycle I posted above.

Are you forgetting about the religion that thinks it's okay to veil women in burkas, practice FGM, and throw people off buildings? Gotta love the way people think the CC is discriminating against women when Mary is revered.