Fall of the Catholic Church

Juran · 07-05-2022 9:43am #1

The beginning of the fall of the Catholic Church in Ireland (via @IrishTimes) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/the-beginning-of-the-fall-of-the-catholic-church-in-ireland-1.4871562

Its hard to believe the power they had over the state up to very recent years. NMH lands is still a debate, but I'm glad people can chose to follow religion (if they wish).

ancapailldorcha · 07-05-2022 9:45am

It'd be nice if you could have given some summary and opinion of the article instead of just pasting it here.

I don't know what he was expecting. The Church historically has been crucial for developing things like Irish identity, education and hopsital but in the past few decades all we've seen from them is pontificating and child abuse on an industrial scale.

Personally, I think that the sooner we're done with religion as a species, the better.

growleaves · 07-05-2022 9:50am

The fall of the Catholic Church in Ireland as a social system with political power.

But Irish people were becoming atheists in the 1960s and it was ultimately that, and not this or that scandal, that did it for Christianity in Ireland imo.

Otherwise people could have joined other Christian churches, set up a new Christian church from scratch or demanded a cleansing/reformation of the CC from the clergy.

ancapailldorcha · 07-05-2022 9:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026923#Comment_119026923

I think it's extremely likely that if someone was prone to becoming an atheist, the atrocities perpetuated by the church would have served as a catalyst.

Montage of Feck · 07-05-2022 10:03am

While most of southern Europe had overtly political conservative regimes, such as Franco is Spain, we just had a conservative regime that was veiled behind pious alter rail licking.

Manach · 07-05-2022 10:09am

The bien-pensants have been perdicting the downfall of Catholic/Catholicism for centuries but we are still here. I can understand those horrifed the Churches handling of abuse cases which should have been better handled, however when it almost always devolves into the superficial virtue signalling as it rarely extends to the states/other institutions handing of the much more prevalent historical aspects of it both in Ireland in other Western countries, as this does not suit their agenda of anti-religiousity. The Church provided and still provides a sense community and coherent world view, as opposed to the nihilistic cultural marxist that both elevates the individual vice and leads to a system where the all encompassing state has taken over policing of a whatever changing current ideological fads.

That there are now radio adverts promoting hotlines to report wrong-think sums up the moral vacuum that is post-Catholic Ireland.

growleaves · 07-05-2022 10:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026931#Comment_119026931

Sure. But my point is that robotic social conformity is not a good reason to be a Christian. Nor is it a good reason to be an atheist and political liberal.

People should read the Gospel of John and decide for themselves what to believe rather than claiming that their thoughts and actions are a second-hand reaction to corrupt institutions and leaders that they have no control over.

Dyr · 07-05-2022 10:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058244816/fall-of-the-catholic-church

The rise of the church of our lady of Dublin 4

They're nearly as bad as the previous lot

ancapailldorcha · 07-05-2022 10:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027007#Comment_119027007

I never advocated for robotic social conformity.

There are several million things one could read with arguably more value than a gospel. The Church's ideology did nothing to stop the mass sexual abuse so it's already of dubious worth from that perspective.

The sanitised John gospel is unlikely to be a good representation of the Church's ideology.

breezy1985 · 07-05-2022 10:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026923#Comment_119026923

Great point. It was the growing atheism made the exposure of the scandal possible not the other way round.

As for this new bishop he seems to have very little self awareness as to why the Ivory tower is crumbling in his little sob story speech

Ginger83 · 07-05-2022 10:21am

Religion and land, the two main causes of war and all things evil.

The sooner it's gone the better. It is nothing other than a way used to control people.

growleaves · 07-05-2022 10:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027018#Comment_119027018

"The sanitised John gospel is unlikely to be a good representation of the Church's ideology."

???

I'm not advocating for "the Church's ideology".

The Gospel of John is a short memoir of someone who knew Jesus Christ and recounts his actions, things he said and what happened to him. Its a starting point for anyone who is open to becoming a Christian (which doesn't include you, I guess).

A person's beliefs shouldn't hinge on the actions of some other person or people (a bishop in Galway or whatever) who they can't control. That's the point I'm making.

07-05-2022 10:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026999#Comment_119026999

"Better handled" is a pretty unique way of describing how the church seemed to follow the exact same strategy of covering up sexual abuse across the globe. This included allowing for priests to continue abusing. The fact you seem to believe that people being angered by the church's role as "virtue signalling" is unsurprising though.

Fyi, I can point to people of all ages who have somewhat turned on the church as a result of the scandals. That's not everyone virtue signalling...

downtheroad · 07-05-2022 10:42am

Good luck lads, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

breezy1985 · 07-05-2022 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027091#Comment_119027091

Don't forget he thinks not treating homosexuals as evil and women as 2nd class property are "ideological fads"

downtheroad · 07-05-2022 10:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027107#Comment_119027107

Its 2022 and these lads are still openly discriminating against women and homosexuals. Any other organisation would be admonished over this.

ancapailldorcha · 07-05-2022 10:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027091#Comment_119027091

It's the standard "Any criticism of the Church is virtue signallaing" defence, ie nothing.

growleaves · 07-05-2022 10:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027120#Comment_119027120

Admonishment is pointless since everyone understands that Christian doctrine can't be altered to make it "gay-friendly". Therefore it can only be tolerated or persecuted, so its tolerated.

07-05-2022 10:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027124#Comment_119027124

It seems like multiple buzz words to imply it is just some leftist agenda against the church. Woke is gonna be exclaimed shortly.

downtheroad · 07-05-2022 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027137#Comment_119027137

Well not for much longer reading than article. A slow persecution by people choosing to move away from the organisation.

growleaves · 07-05-2022 11:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027155#Comment_119027155

You can control people's actions but not their thoughts. I don't know what coercing people to simulate openness to things that are against their deepest beliefs is meant to achieve.

XsApollo · 07-05-2022 11:04am

That organisation still hasn’t changed, just because in Ireland they have been pushed back against and had to change their ways, they still behave the same in other countries. The Philipines for example.

Bunch of animals, that organisation is, don’t ever forget what they did.

Also don’t ever be fooled that they have changed.

if they had their way they would still be shaming and making people suffer.

good riddance, the sooner it is gone the better.

Ceramic · 07-05-2022 11:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026979#Comment_119026979

I think in some ways we had a continuation of Late Victorian and Edwardian British social conservatism that added a layer of an extremely conservative interpretation of Catholicism that wrapped itself around nationalism in a totally inappropriate way.

Many of the institutions that grew up around education and health are basically just a failure to reform 19th century concepts of Poor Law systems - we effectively were running privately operated Workhouses just rebadged as Magdalene Laundries and industrial schools well into the 20th century.

The state seemed to have largely turned a blind eye and stepped aside, almost voluntarily confining itself to areas that the church didn’t dominate. It didn’t touch primary and secondary education and health etc other than to expand its funding of it essentially through 19th century structures that remained unreformed.

It was a mess and I think in many ways we are only seeing Ireland begin to move through the kinds of reforms that were seen elsewhere in Northern Europe, in Britain and in the more developed of the former British colonies like Canada and Australia decades sooner than they happened here.

It often feels a bit like Ireland froze in the 1920s and didn’t have any of the post war reforms that were seen in Britain and elsewhere really until the 1970s and beyond.

The boat just wasn’t rocked and the church held and was allowed to grow and concentrate a totally inappropriate amount of power, in a political climate that was extremely weak and usually focused on other issues and an economy that didn’t really have much resources to take projects on.

I also think the church very much exploited a class divide that’s essentially Victorian too. The establishment experience of church institutions was very much through fee paying schools and private hospitals. They never had to depend on the church operated services in the same way. There was a huge swathe of suburbia that only ever saw lovely nuns and priests. It was the working class people and anyone who fell outside the norms (notably women who got pregnant outside marriage) who experienced the brutality of those institutions directly.

The result of that I think was an establishment that didn’t see the problems or chose to look away. In a lot of cases as they just didn’t experience the then first hand or had ways to side step them, but or the extreme cases saw them as “good enough for them” and there was an obsession with respectability.

Effectively I think Ireland was lost in some kind of Catholic Dickensian weirdness for far too long and the factors behind that are numerous. They include the church’s ambitions to control, but they also include a weak political system that never took the bull by the horns and was easily manipulated and kept in line.

We’re largely past it now but I think there’s a risk of a nostalgia being generated by some about bygone eras that were just awful in reality.

donaghs · 07-05-2022 11:11am

Lots of hypocrites coming out of the woodwork now:

"“It was seismic. The Bishop Casey affair! The beginning of the end of trust in mitred men. Eamonn Casey’s big, blustering personality had seemed endearingly chummy to many people,” said former president, Mary McAleese this week."

I'm fairly sure McAleese was a staunch Catholic in 1992, and beyond. Its only in the last few years she's the Catholic who doesn't like the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church isn't the only religion/institution in Ireland. I think we need to analyse what we don't like about it, and prevent that from happening in other areas of life again. now, and in the future.

Not allowing "sacred cows" to be above investigation. e.g. successful swimming coaches.

Don't tolerate intolerance to women and gay people, e.g. mainstream Islam (Clonskeagh, etc) goes far beyond the Catholic Church in this regard.

Don't allow one organization/doctrine have a commanding position to preach their views to everyone else, and refuse to engage in debate, effectively denouncing anyone who disagrees with them as heretics or sinners.

breezy1985 · 07-05-2022 11:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027185#Comment_119027185

I fully believe they would do it all again in Ireland given the chance.

I don't trust the motives of any religious organizations

HazeDoll · 07-05-2022 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119026999#Comment_119026999

"... but we are still here."

Things that hang around long after you have tried to get rid of them:

Herpes.

Japanese knotweed.

Unpleasant neighbours.

Catholics.

Posters here have condemned an organisation that oppressed and abused on a global scale while claiming to be a moral authority. You accuse these posters of 'virtue signalling.' Surely you can see why that is ridiculous. I know that people of a theological bent are adept at the sort of cognitive backflips that would scramble the rest of us for life, but you can surely see the hypocrisy in your statement.

07-05-2022 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027023#Comment_119027023

It was the growing atheism made the exposure of the scandal possible not the other way round

Rubbish. Many of the key people in discovering and reporting the scandals were Catholics, and probably still are. There is a difference between belief and the adherence to dogma. Social conditioning was the cause of the ignoring of the Church offenses, and that affected Atheists in Ireland, just as much as anyone else... considering the widespread established effect that the Catholic Church had on Irish society. It should be remembered that there were Catholic priests and nuns who went against their own orders to attest to those abuses existing.

There is this revisionism being applied when it comes to the abuses and scandals where the whole religion is being painted as knowing, responsible, and guilty of hiding what was happening. And yet, the truth is that many Catholics, both normal people, and lay people, stood up against the abuses, and helped those abuses come to the attention of the general population. But nah.. it's popular to paint everyone of the religion as being responsible... much simpler that way, than acknowledge the true weaknesses of society, and the actual behaviours of humans in general. Just think of all those people who weren't part of the Church, but who enabled those abuses to continue.. you really going to claim that Atheists weren't part of that mess?

It was the decline in the effect of social conditioning, greater access to education, and the ability to widen your knowledge of the international world that allowed Irish people to question the status quo. Social revolution had come to Ireland, whether it was the questioning of women's rights, the right to sexual liberation, or whatever. The old order was being questioned.. and it wasn't coming from Atheists. It was coming from people of all backgrounds.

You're seeking to elevate Atheists into some kind of glorious position, but the Church has long been a refuge for deviants of all kinds, including Atheists. It's easy to mouth the platitudes and go through the motions, pretending belief in Christianity (or any religion) without your personal beliefs being discovered. After all, many of the worst acts by humans have been performed by Atheists.. just as they have been done by people in the name of religion.

breezy1985 · 07-05-2022 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027255#Comment_119027255

Who were these key catholics reporting the scandal. Are we talking catholics or baptised people ?

Because practically everyone in Ireland was "catholic" and no one is denying there are terrible people who are atheists.

It's you who is trying to paint the "good German" myth as if it was the church itself led the change.

downtheroad · 07-05-2022 11:25am

Anyone who supports an organisation whose members sexually abused children and put babies into a septic tank needs to have a good hard look at themselves.

This organisation is long past its sell by date in Ireland, and recent referendums on divorce, same sex marriage and abortion have proved that. As do the dwindling numbers attending their service.

Ceramic · 07-05-2022 11:28am

There’s a large element of Stockholm Syndrome. A lot of people invested a lot of trust in organisations that they’re now finding to be completely dysfunctional and even downright malevolent.

It’s also a reason I think we need to ensure that more or our public social infrastructure is actually public and not just relying on things like church halls and church schools. All that stuff just gives a private organisation an ability to subtly exclude and dominate and makes people feel like outsiders in their own country.

donaghs · 07-05-2022 11:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027260#Comment_119027260

Lots of organizations have members who abused children, and covered it up. Look at child abuse scandals in UK council childrens home, uk football coaches/scouts, irish swimming, Scouting everywhere, Danish government children homes (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-49320260).

Should the same approach be taken to them? just shut them down?

I'm not religious, but I don't have many issues with the modern Catholic Church. I think there are unique aspects of Catholicism which need reform (celibacy, role of women, attitude to gays) but thats their business - the modern catholic church seems remarkably liberal compared with born-again Christianity or mainstream islam.

07-05-2022 11:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027259#Comment_119027259

I'm not going to trawl through all the people who brought these offenses to light... because I know it won't matter in the slightest.

But let me ask you this. There have been reports (1980s) by Catholic brothers/nuns which cast allegations against others of their order (or people working in the schools/institutions), which led to internal reviews.. now, fine.. the leadership within the Catholic Church quashed those investigations.. but do you really think that those reports/allegations didn't contribute towards awareness of the abuses coming out? You believe that those brothers/nuns who raised those concerns about the behaviours of others did nothing, and should be held collectively responsible with the remainder of the Catholic Church?

Ceramic · 07-05-2022 11:38am

The issue as I see it is that it should never again matter what the Catholic Church or any other private organisation is doing in terms of its own private internal agendas.

They’re are private organisations and simply shouldn’t be running public services in a secular state where freedom of religion, including freedom not to be religious should simply be something we can all take for granted.

What the Catholic Church or any other church does with its internal politics or whether it fizzles or not isn’t anything to do with me and I don’t want it intruding on my life or interactions with public services.

There’s nothing anti religious about being secular. It’s simply saying it’s a private matter and not the concern of the state but also that the state is not the concern of religious organisations.

We’re still mired in legacy issues in education and aspects of healthcare.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-05-2022 11:40am

Had forgotten about the Casey affair.

THe thing is that around that time loads of authoritarian regiems fell. The Berlin Wall fell. Apartheid fell. Commumist USSR fell. And Tianamen Square nearly caused similar upheavels in China. And all within a 2-3 year gap.

The other thing that came about at that time is internet access. Admittedly in cafes and with dial-up speeds, but for the price of a couple of coffees anyone could go online and read anything and start challenging the church and what was said. Divorce? Abortion? Pornography? Suddenly, we had access to alternative viewpoints and we were in a position we could challenge.

As for now, Irish people don't like being lectured or codescended to. That's the obstacle the Catholic Church has to overcome now.

07-05-2022 11:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027259#Comment_119027259

Sorry.. the edit came in after I responded.

Who were these key catholics reporting the scandal. Are we talking catholics or baptised people ?

Because practically everyone in Ireland was "catholic" and no one is denying there are terrible people who are atheists.

It's you who is trying to paint the "good German" myth as if it was the church itself led the change.

You sought to suggest that it was only due to Atheists that the scandals were revealed, and that change in Ireland happened... Maybe I misunderstood you..

I didn't say anything about the Church implementing change. Nada. Not one suggestion that the scandals or abuse revelations came from "The Church". But sure, I'll go with the "good german" analogy, because I've never liked collective guilt. It's lazy and incredibly unfair.

breezy1985 · 07-05-2022 11:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027316#Comment_119027316

Any priest or nun who stayed in the order knowing what they knew are definitely collectively responsible.

How many from their pulpit and strong position in society just said straight out to the congregation on Sunday what was happening. How many publicly renounced the Pope and the bishops.

breezy1985 · 07-05-2022 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027327#Comment_119027327

Just on Casey and the internet.

Imagine the abuse Annie Murphy would be getting here if Boards was around back then. Plenty of the usual suspects would be queuing up to make it all her fault (as some did in real life)

donaghs · 07-05-2022 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027319#Comment_119027319

I think public services are better, but its not in itself an answer. There needs to be oversight and accountability. Look at all the child abuse scandals in secular government childrens home, where the power of the government bureaucracy can be utilised to frustrate investigations.

The Islington childrens home scandal of the 1980s is one example. The most left-wing Labour Council in the London.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/jul/06/children.childprotection

Lambeth wasnt far behind: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/aug/01/when-moral-pieties-get-in-the-way-of-doing-the-right-thing-children-suffer

07-05-2022 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027289#Comment_119027289

That's a slightly rewrite of history though. It was Vatican level in terms of directing the cover up of abuse. The exact same approach to covering up the abuse occurred in all the countries where it occurred. So it's not some abusers being in the hierarchy, it's institution level and the church at all levels happily hid it.

07-05-2022 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027341#Comment_119027341

Any priest or nun who stayed in the order knowing what they knew are definitely collectively responsible.

I see. And do you allow that some priests/nuns didn't know? (not with any real degree of certainty, that is).

We live in a different world now, with social media, and the internet being so commonplace. It's kinda hard to remember that Ireland in the 80s/90s wasn't that connected, and information wasn't as easily obtained or verified..

How many from their pulpit and strong position in society just said straight out to the congregation on Sunday what was happening. How many publicly renounced the Pope and the bishops.

None. But then, the social conditioning that the general Irish society received was reinforced a million times more within the organisation of the Catholic Church itself. Which, is not attempting to excuse them.. btw.

Don't think I'm trying to defend "the Church". While I grew up in a devout family, I'm an agnostic. I believe that religion should have no public expression in society, and should be regulated to the inside of people's homes, with all religious institutions being completely transparent. However, at the same time, I have relations and friends who are members of the Church, and I don't believe they should be collectively made guilty for what some creeps did.

growleaves · 07-05-2022 11:56am

'I believe that religion should have no public expression in society, and should be regulated to the inside of people's homes'

How could that be enforced. If someone stages a gallery showing of religious art do you send police to shut it down and arrest the organisers?

breezy1985 · 07-05-2022 11:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027402#Comment_119027402

Your being a bit too literal there I reckon.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-05-2022 11:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027353#Comment_119027353

I think it was both sides to be honest. Radio phone-in shows were the boards.ie of the time back then I remember a lot of these type of issues getting a lot of support and backlash. That said, I'm prety sure the radio stations paid actors to phone in and troll people so as to generate more calls and interest.

As I said, this is the time when people were questioning morals rather than blindly accepting them, so I dont think she's have gotten as much backlash as you'd think.

MrMusician18 · 07-05-2022 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027210#Comment_119027210

Indeed, if there is one public figure that ought to go away is that hypocrite McAleese. She talks there about how she could see right through the hierarchy from the early 90's but that didn't stop her from courting the Church when she was seeking election or representing the Bishops in the New Ireland forum.

She's definitely changed her tune ever since her son started to stand for election.

Ceramic · 07-05-2022 12:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027380#Comment_119027380

That’s a somewhat parallel issue though. Organisations fail, corruption happens and they certainly can have issues, but publicly run bodies are accountable, or at least can be made to be when they’re well structured and regulated and are ultimately accountable though open politics in free, democratic societies like ours.

Yes, they can go wrong but they are reformable, repairable and can be designed to be transparent and inherently safe.

The problem with a private, religious run organisation is nobody except the religious community can achieve that. It sees itself as answerable to its own rules and ultimately to some hierarchy that sees itself as answerable to a deity. It may have agendas that are not aligned with the public good or with democratic choices made by a society, such as agendas to evangelise or drive particular social policies, as we have found out here around the institutions.

That isn’t any way to run a public service in a democratic society.

07-05-2022 12:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027402#Comment_119027402

I think the act of religion and the promotion of that religion should be restricted to certain places, and not be allowed within the public domain. No different from the perspectives here about removing religion from the school system.

And... I'm sure you can pick holes with a million examples.. I know it's not realistic/practical, considering the rights that people have these days. It was merely to point out to that poster that I wasn't supporting the Catholic Church or the religion, itself.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-05-2022 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027341#Comment_119027341

I seriously doubt they would have known. The Chruch would have most definitely kept this on a need-to-know basis.

Also, some of them may have been doing some genuinely positive and helpful work within their communities and may have said nothing for the greater good. Not saying that was the right option though.

07-05-2022 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027432#Comment_119027432

Politics and religion have always walked hand-in-hand in this country.. they relied on each other..

I do find it interesting the hate the Catholic Church receives now, but our political parties seem to have been given a free pass on it all. Hell, I wonder just how much RTE ignored reports of abuses, or how long they avoided reporting on it all...

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-05-2022 12:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027438#Comment_119027438

The political parties have distanced themselves from the church and don't preach. They sell. The sell ideas but are very open in the fact that we are the ones who choose. As an elective, we can make or break politicians. They are, to some degree, answerable to us.

I mean, we had an openly gay Taoiseacht - who was elected and crticised based on his ideas and acts, not his orientation.

Galwayguy35 · 07-05-2022 12:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027244#Comment_119027244

So you want to get rid of Catholics do you?

How do you plan on doing that, round them all up in concentration camps like the Nazis did in WW2.

growleaves · 07-05-2022 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119027434#Comment_119027434

The public domain isn't a controlled space as per the Irish Constitution. Members of the public just have the right to free expression.

In Spain and Portugal there are annual corpus christi marches through towns and villages since the 13th century. They won't restrict themselves voluntarily so...?

Fall of the Catholic Church

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