Fall of the Catholic Church

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031532#Comment_119031532

Thankfully that particular branch of The Church of Lefty Woo is being absolutely crushed to smithereens , mostly because real feminists suddenly woke up (pardon the pun) and realised it was nothing more then just another wave of misogyny that needed to be kicked to touch.

Glad to see that the push to force biological women to accept without complaint the adjective “Cis” is also being laughed out of the room.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031659#Comment_119031659

With respect I suspect you've very little experience of clubs. The picture postcard image you have in your head rarely exists.

There's enough articles in the media about problems with clubs. Kinda hard to miss it.

https://youtu.be/rt8T8oho4Fk

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031770#Comment_119031770

"Cis" has it's purpose, but the rest of what you say I'd agree with.

Not sure I'd class woke as a religion, but then I wouldn;t start an argument over it.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031848#Comment_119031848

Plenty. I'm not saying there aren't problems, I'm saying that they're a much better fostering of community than religion.

Am at work in a loud environment, so can't listen to the youtube clip - give me a summary (as long as it disputes the above comment - if it doesn't, don't bother)

Flinty997

It's a satire of golf clubs, social commentary etc.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031850#Comment_119031850

What is it’s purpose?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031174#Comment_119031174

Many parents have been unhappy about the Church controlling their schools for decades, but as we're seeing with the maternity hospital, the Church will cling onto to every possible angle of control until the State finally stands up.

I guess this is a good example of the parents who are perfectly happy with Church schools. Perfectly happy to have a big day out that has nothing to do with religion.

https://twitter.com/simonmlewis/status/1517633088549015552?s=20&t=i2DO9GOWySqsuf1WKeR1XA

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032006#Comment_119032006

This is why I switched off from Catholicism. Too many people pretending to be Christian who are not Christian. Just another excuse for a dress, money, big day out, Keeping up appearances.

It's kind of a celebrity culture spinoff.

I think Jesus would be astonished the way people assume any of this is being Christian when in fact it's helping the poor and your neighbor ... And not ***** up the environment for future generations or sticking your head in the sand with your financial investments ....

The church just added a whole load of shite on Jesus's message. They turned it into a circus so loads of people would "join".

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031498#Comment_119031498

I want them, all 1 billion of them, to sit and think for a few minutes. Just a bare few minutes of genuine, independent, honest, critical thought. Then they'd all realise that their religion has not brought them any real happiness because it's based on a collection of fictions. They would also realise that the wider world would be better off with their religion. They would outgrow the silly superstitions they have lived with and start to act like sentient adults. Then they'd take their grubby paws out of education, healthcare and government.

And they'd all be better off and the rest of us wouldn't have to tolerate their deluded, self-righteous, victimy whingeing.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031716#Comment_119031716

I never said that attending religious services wasn't the only social outlet for people, but it was the only social outlet where the whole community (i.e. people that live near each other) did participate.

Given that up until relatively recently the vast majority of Irish people identified themselves as one faith, attending their services certainly did provide a common universal social space in this country. It was an anchor point.

It is something that has not been replicated by any pub, concert or club. What are the anchor points for a modern Irish community? What are the collective commonalities that foster a sense of community among the people that live near each other?

I am not saying that this is a good or a bad thing, but an observation.

HazeDoll

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032122#Comment_119032122

This won't happen, obviously. For the same reason that some nine-year-olds still profess to believe in Santy, long after they have acquired the critical faculties required to dismiss that myth. It's easier, cozier and less challenging than facing reality.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119031995#Comment_119031995

Opposite or trans, obviously - how else are you going to describe something that stays on the same side?

And before you say something like "normal", that's like saying "homo"sexual is a nonsense word because "hetero"sexual is "nomal" and "homo"sexual is has also got no purpose.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032006#Comment_119032006

There was a story some time ago on one of the Dublin radio show a while back:

A primary school teacher who's class had just made first communion, missed one of the girls at the service. The next school day, she went over to the child and apologised for not saying congratulations. At which point, the girl said, "that's ok Miss - we were so late getting out of the hairdressers' we just went straight to the hotel...."

(Not sure how true it is, but I wouldn't say unlikely)

TomTomTim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032122#Comment_119032122

 Then they'd all realise that their religion has not brought them any real happiness because it's based on a collection of fictions

This is the problem with internet atheists, pure arrogance. You think you know whether or not something makes someone else happy, without having an actual clue if it does or doesn't. Go to depression forums, and you won't find many Christians, but I'd bet you'll find many atheists. Being bitter and spiteful, as you were in your first few posts here, isn't a trait of a happy person, yet you think you've some right to declare that others can't be happy living with a different set of values.

And they'd all be better off and the rest of us wouldn't have to tolerate their deluded, self-righteous, victimy whingeing.

Once again, nothing but arrogance. The "tolerant" who tolerate little but their own way, a trope we've become far too used to. The irony of your post too, considering that your views would create more "victimhood" than less, as you're a perfect example of a poster with nothing but hatred towards Catholics. I appreciate your honesty though, as many try and dress up their hatred, but you, you are frank.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032006#Comment_119032006

Many parents? How many? Why haven’t these “many parents” got organised and forced the governments hand on this issue? I know why. There’s just not really that many. It’s an issue for a small fringe group. Vast majority are totally unconcerned, in particular the new Irish who find our education system to be very satisfactory and wonderfully inclusive for all. Which is exactly what it is.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032170#Comment_119032170

No. There’s two groups. There’s women. And there’s trans women. That is all. I don’t need an adjective to describe what I am. I don’t want/need to be described as cis any more then I want to be described as white/fat.

Im perfectly happy of course to respect anyones request that I use their preferred pronouns when speaking to/about them.

Why then is it so difficult to ask that the very same group respect, in return, the refusal of many millions of women to have this tacked on?

I find it offensive. You’ll agree I’m sure that what anyone finds offensive is entirely subjective. That’s a given. So no point in telling me that I have no grounds to be offended. Just accept that that’s the way it is.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032264#Comment_119032264

In the same way there's "straight" and "not straight", right?

The difference being "woman" is an umbrella term.

Don't know what the answers to your last two pragrpahs are and don't know what you'd be offended...? Utimately, it's not a massive issue - it's there if you want to use it, it's fine if you don't, but saying it has no function isn't really correct. It has function to some people.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032132#Comment_119032132

The GAA are pretty much an anchor point in communities across the country. Has always been substantial historically and into the present.

And go to other places in the country and you'll find that there's plenty of weekly community outlets. Eg in Cork, there tends to be farmers markets that brings the entire community together on a weekly basis. And to be honest, a hell of a lot more enjoyable than a mass. So anchor points for communities do exist and thrive.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032006#Comment_119032006

I wonder how many people lamenting the decline of the Catholic Church are actually going every Sunday themselves. It has no business in schools but I suspect there's a sizeable demographic happy for their children to learn Catholic values without the hassle of going to Mass every Sunday.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032318#Comment_119032318

You can learn about them without going to church or religious education in schools.

It is also noticeable that some lamenting the decline don't show that they actually pay any attention to the basic tenets to their religion and except focus on the parts where they get to rant about gays and immigrants. What would be called Sunday Catholics.

Flinty997

I don't really have a problem if people want to be selective about the parts of their religion they practise it's mostly (or entirely) their business not mine.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032200#Comment_119032200

Seriously? You post about what 'the vast majority' are thinking, without any backup or verification, but you expect me to explain what 'many parents' want? Fairly typical of the double-standards that we've seen coming from the Church for decades, with Eamonn Casey and Micheal Cleary telling us about modesty and chastity, while riding anything with a pulse, so we shouldn't be surprised with the same double standards coming from those who want to maintain their grip on control of churches and hospitals.

Parents have been organised for decades, and have managed to create about 100 non-denominational schools over the past 20 years or so, and yet still, bad Ministers and bad Bishops have managed to maintain that vice grip of control over the vast majority of schools and hospitals, living up to the Jesuits modus operandi, give me the child at 7, etc etc.

What is it about Church people that have this deep need to enslave others into their cult, and stop people from thinking independently?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032462#Comment_119032462

It is also noticeable that some lamenting the decline don't show that they actually pay any attention to the basic tenets to their religion and except focus on the parts where they get to rant about gays and immigrants. What would be called Sunday Catholics.

As opposed to being an Atheist and being able to rant about homosexuals, religions and immigrants? Is there a special term for them?

I've never heard any Christian complain about immigrants with any connection to their religious beliefs. Their concerns, criticisms, etc towards immigration are separate to their religious values.. and quite possibly are rooted in practical considerations. What are these basic tenets that relate to immigrants? As with all things, you can go to extremes... or apply them in moderation.

You can learn about them without going to church or religious education in schools

Where? And there is a difference between learning about something, and receiving the conditioning that makes those values part of your own perspective. Unless the parents are teaching these Christian values, it's unlikely someone is going to pick them up, externally to going to Church or in a Christian led school.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032528#Comment_119032528

I do when they're trying to force it down other people's throats.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032721#Comment_119032721

Where does that happen in Ireland? Not 40 years ago. In the present, where does that happen?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032318#Comment_119032318

The Catholic values that women are 2nd class citizens, that gay people are intrinsically disorded, that sex and even masturbation is sinful - why would anyone want their kids to buy into that?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032733#Comment_119032733

In the 95%+ of schools that are Church controlled.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032751#Comment_119032751

Apparently a sufficient number to convince the government to allow the Church control of most of the country's schools.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032733#Comment_119032733

As long as all schools provide a suitable alternative for kids who don't want religion, then I'd argue they aren't secular (and by alternatively, I don't mean sitting quietly and not reading a book - they're supposed to be teaching, not babysitting).

Either Ireland is a secular country and the State education system is not involved in teaching religion, or it should stop pretenfing to be.

i

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032281#Comment_119032281

As I said, offense is subjective and doesn’t have to be explained.

I thought that all this had been ironed out long ago. People are offended by all manner of things now, wether any offence was intended or not. People were always offended by all manner of things.

The big difference now is that if you inadvertently offend someone now, you might very well be sacked or, if your in the UK, find yourself explaining your mistake to a police officer.

So it’s kinda disappointing to find you here questioning why I might cis offensive. It really is quite hypocritical to be honest.

Rules that apply to one group should really apply to everyone.

And yes, I’m quite confident that a woman is an adult human female and a trans woman is someone who is living their life as a woman though isn’t a female. If there are more types of people who can include the word “woman” in a description of themselves then I’d be interested to hear about it.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032828#Comment_119032828

How do you suggest the state does this.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032757#Comment_119032757

Can you give an example of an incident in the secondary school closest to you of catholiscm being “shoved down the throat” of a pupil. Thanks.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032838#Comment_119032838

Why is it hypocritical? There's stuff I find offensive, there's stuff I don't. Harmless terminologies is one I don't. There really are bigger issues out there.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032721#Comment_119032721

How can Catholics avoid most of their own religion then? And no one else can?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032846#Comment_119032846

School Mass for start or end of term, prayers at school registrations, Church approval of sex education curriculum, refusal to respect trans students - as still happens in Church schools and community schools in Ireland.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032855#Comment_119032855

I've no idea what you're asking here. Why would a Catholic avoid their own religion?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032846#Comment_119032846

In primary schools they absolutely have undue influence on things like sex education.... I would say, yep they're shoving a perspective down the throat of children and I would say a non LGBT friendly syllabus is very much so dangerous in formative years.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/new-catholic-primary-school-sex-education-programme-published-1.4547221

https://www.thejournal.ie/pure-in-heart-primary-school-5034268-Mar2020/

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032845#Comment_119032845

By insisting religion is taught as an extra-curricular activity conducted by priests, nuns, pastors, immams, rabbis or the relevant designated spiritual leader. Unless the school is private, in which case the school itself pays for the instruction.

pancratic

People need a set of guidelines and leadership that transcends politics. The formation of morality? If it's not one thing, it's the other, if it's not fighting one thing, it's fighting the other. Purpose.

A moral vacuum will be filled rapidly. In a competition between the wildly aggressive and regressive religions outside Christianity versus "whatever you like", there'll be only one winner.

A few moments of greed followed by subjugation on the scale of things is the predictable outcome. Case in point, a Catholic owned/run school that's sold off and turned into a luxury hotel. I'm aware of two instances of this specifically, and it really frames the entire question of value personally. Was that a win for society? No. Is a haphazard bunch of cretinous ideas sprouted from the likes of Twitter maniacs going to fill moral leadership? No.

If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything, so be careful what you wish for and how it is being manipulated.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032751#Comment_119032751

In what way are women in the Catholic Church today “second class citizens”? To help you, here is a definition of “second class citizen” from Wikipedia. As the church isn’t a state or a political jursdiction it’s hard to see where you’re going with this but, anyway:

A second-class citizen is a person who is systematically and actively discriminated against within a state or other political jurisdiction, despite their nominal status as a citizen or a legal resident there.

Ill also take this opportunity to correct you, once again, on your allegation that the RCC says that that gay people are disordered.

It doesn’t say that.

It says that gay sex is disordered. That’s quite a difference. The RCC doesn’t recognise any kind of sex outside of heterosexual marriage though so I don’t don’t know why gay people find it so particularly offensive. There are lots of people not in the gay community who cannot be received into the sacrament of matrimony either. It’s not as if gay people are particularly discriminated against in that manner.

LGBTQ EQUALITY

ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION & GENDER IDENTITY

The Catechism of the Catholic Church, a text which contains dogmas and teachings of the Church, names “homosexual acts” as “intrinsically immoral and contrary to the natural law,”

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032757#Comment_119032757

The claim was "they're trying to force it down other people's throats."

There is a difference between having the schools administered by the Church, and forcing it down peoples throats. How many of these schools continue to have mandatory prayers during classes? Mandatory confessions? etc.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032828#Comment_119032828

Which is not what I responded to. You're making an entirely different point.

But in relation to what you said, as long as there are religious icons, and the teachings of religion in mainstream classes (not an elective extra class) then the system is not secular. However, if those icons and religious teachings are removed, but just administered by the religious orders, without that religion being expressed in mainstream classes... then I would say they are upholding a secular system.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032891#Comment_119032891

An organization with views such as that should have absolutely no influence upon sex education in schools but they do...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032883#Comment_119032883

I'm not religious and I'm perfectly capable of morality without it. Also the church was perfectly capable of engaging in endless immoral acts over the years so they're not the best as moral arbiters go.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032870#Comment_119032870

Why won't they do that....

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032896#Comment_119032896

Someone argued the chruch was forcing religion down people's troaths. While not "forceing down the troat" this is an example of exerting unrequested influence.

Beyond that, I agree - if you spent a few days in the school, you should not be able to tell whether the administration was the chruch or not.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032906#Comment_119032906

What's not something I can speculate. I was only answering the question.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032901#Comment_119032901

But there has to be a policy on sex education in the school. Who decided that a pro LGBTQ program was better for kids then a pro traditional family values program?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032868#Comment_119032868

The claim was Catholic avoid most aspects of their religion. I said who cares.

I don't see how they can do it and no one else can.

Predictably we're back to schools again where Catholics are only turning up to the hotel and not the ceremony. But everyone else is getting force fed religion.

All the hyperbole aside. People can't be both brainwashed and ignoring religion at the same time.

It's a waste of school time certainly. But the school boards seem to have undue religious influence.

TooTired123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032859#Comment_119032859

Primary school down the road here has plenty of non Christian, never mind non Catholic pupils. Not one single child is obliged to go to the mass say the prayers or anything else for that manner. So there’s no shoving any of these things down anyones throat.

I think you probably need to bring yourself up to date with modern school life.

Did you think you still had to be baptised to be enrolled??

Can you give me an example of a trans student being either refused or expelled here in Ireland??

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032909#Comment_119032909

Someone argued the chruch was forcing religion down people's troaths. While not "forceing down the troat" this is an example of exerting unrequested influence.

Unrequested influence? You have got to be joking. Teachers bring their own biases into the classroom all the time. This thread has been throwing out biases about Trans issues (in spite of how little we know about its long-term impact over children's/teens development)... but simple exposure to a religion, without it being actively encouraged or forced, is unreasonable?

I agree that religious education should be a separate class, which parents/students choose for themselves.

Beyond that, I agree - if you spent a few days in the school, you should not be able to tell whether the administration was the chruch or not.

Why is that important? After all, most religious orders have a uniform, or religious attire... so it's unlikely to escape anyone's notice if the administration of the school is religious. Would you expect a Muslim female teacher to dress the same as other non-religious people to avoid the impression that she might be promoting her religion?

pancratic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119032901#Comment_119032901

Nothing is perfect. Whether it pretends to be or not.

As for your ability to be moral without religion, very interesting.

So, would you have the morality to force women to cover their faces? Public stonings? Female genital mutilation? Male genital mutilation?

Because that would be considered a common morality amongst a great many people, religious or not. Your a-religious morality is immoral to some other a-religious fella from elsewhere.

My point is this, your morality is more than likely 99% overlap with Christianity because of your upbringing. You don't develop some universal morality out of thin air. You have the beliefs you do because of religion, with a couple tweaks and bells added on to make it feel new. Try your morality in some other place and you will be surprised at how wrong and unacceptable you suddenly are.

People need religion, whether it is called a religion or not.