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New patio is falling towards house..

  • 01-05-2022 5:24pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭


    I've just had a patio installed at back of house. Literally running onto both back doors. First day inspecting it and i notice there is fall towards house.

    I was explicit about drainage being a massive concern as back garden can be a marsh. He installed some flexi pipe under hard core to carry water away but having a fall towards house seems crazy.

    Guy is due back on Tuesday to finish the job. Would be a big job for him to pull up and relevel...

    Am I over thinking things?



«134

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    OK so put half flow of hose pipe on and it ran towards the house and started pooling at the door... so I've a free water feature included:(



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    Make sure the pool is there for him to see on Tuesday



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    Unfortunately it's very easy to demonstrate the problem. It's a large patio all it would take is a good persistent down pour and there would be serious risk of water coming through pvc doors...

    Absolutely gutted isn't the word.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,137 ✭✭✭spakman


    At least he's coming back, so you can demonstrate it and get him to rectify.

    He can't leave it as is, if it's as bad as you say.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    Literally couple of minutes of hose at half "up stream". Water is deep enough to go into shoes and takes about 10 minutes to seep away.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    There are ducts that can be fitted along the footpath which are a solution... you must create a way for the water to go... i would not be happy with the flexi pipe...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    The way he said was the drainage would be underneath and he laid a good bit of it. Problem with water is it takes path of least resistance so any gradient it will flow down rather than soak through sand and hard-core...

    So I'm seeing two options.

    Take up all slabs and level so fall is going away from house.

    Or install French drain along the entire side of the house...

    I wouldn't mind but I absolutely laboured the point of drainage and that the fall must be away from house. One of the reasons i selected the guy was he brought up drainage without me mentioning it and he also had experience working on Dublin Airport drainage system as a contractor...

    Here is the level going towards house..




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,305 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    The bonus is you will have your own tadpole pool every Spring. Kids will love it.

    Seriously though you need to get that sorted and now's the time to do so otherwise it will cause you grief for a long time to come.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    OP looking at your picture is looks a decent job and I wonder if the overall patio slopes away from the house and a small section near the patio doors had to be like that to keep the levels right?

    In which case there needs to be a strip drain along the front edge of the door.

    Edit> I don't see any major risk of flooding because as soon as that pool reaches a certain size it will drain away down the patio away from the house.

    Its not right but I don't think its as bad as you imagine but a right pain to put any drain in at this stage.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    That's an awful job. Even if you had to have water going towards that direction you'd expect channel drainage to have been used at the wall.


    Terrible Terrible.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    I'm going to check but my initial look at it yesterday all measurements were falling towards house.

    Really not sure how they managed to get it so wrong.

    I was cursing rain at the weekend but actually it was very lucky as it made the problem evident...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Its an abysmal job. He's laid it flat on the original house path and not dug enough out of the lawn area for the patio. Thus slopping the entire lawn side patio towards the house. It's extremely visible in the wall at the far side of the patio you can see the slope on the wall towards the house. It looks significant as it can be spotted easily by eye.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    The fall should be fairly obvious because the old rule of thumb was 1/4 inch for every foot which just shy of a 1 in 50 (1inch drop every 48 inches) sorry thats in old money.

    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    Yep it's sadly quite a fundamental cockup.

    It's going to be quite a bit of labour to resolve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,566 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Yup.. In my old house I was worried about water pooling by the patio door , so I had that type of drain put infront of the door , and connecting into the drain that the gutters drain into -

    Turned out I didn't have any water pooling, because I laid the paving on pea gravel and then grouted just with sand ... So it drys out in minutes .

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,104 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    But he doesn't have that. He has a big pool at his entrance door. This job was clearly done by a cowboy. I don't see any professional installer ever doing something like this. It's like something my da would have done in the 90s diy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,426 ✭✭✭maestroamado


    Those tiles need to be re-done regardless of cost...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 31,137 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Is is better to have fall towards a channel drain at the house, or fall away to a drain at the perimeter of the patio?

    Since the garden is wet already you don't want the rainwater just running on to the lawn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,664 ✭✭✭jackboy


    It looks like slabs were placed on top of the footpath but then the rest of the patio slopes away from the house. A quick cheap job it looks like. He will probably tell you he couldn’t slope the part beside the door because of the footpath, but he should have discussed this properly with you before starting the job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    I messaged the guy yesterday and he said he would take a look tomorrow. It's going to take more than a look to fix that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,566 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Or a proper drain put in against the wall of the house ...

    How much was paid in advance ? Did you provide the slabs ? Is there a chance that if you insist he start from scratch ,and the slabs aren't easy to lift cleanly that the builder decides to just feic off, cut his losses and leave you with the problem ?

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,664 ✭✭✭jackboy


    A fix, whether adding a drain or digging up the footpath is going to cost a lot of extra money. It would have made more sense to start the patio at the edge of the footpath.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    I'm afraid there isn't much cash left to pay him. Lessons learnt here... however he's local chap so would expect him to want to rectify it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,932 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    +1 on this type of solution. I have a couple of levels in my back garden and the patio itself had to slope towards my house to properly access already in situ drainage. To make sure that no real issue arose with pooling or flooding, my landscaper installed a channel drain the full width of the house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    We have small kids so getting rid of step was part of the brief. I did ask him about Knocking out footpath but he said it wasn't necessary...

    I had an existing patio I put down myself and I said it was water logged when it rained and was important that water be taken care of so proper drainage...

    I'm actually sick to the stomach :(



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,967 ✭✭✭Nigzcurran


    That’s gonna be covered in algae and slippery from water sitting on it unfortunately. It looks like a diy job to be honest but I doubt he’ll redo the whole thing, he’ll try fill you full of some nonsense and at best will put a drain at the door



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,461 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    I'd rip it all out.

    It's quite dangerous anyway to be raising external ground level up close to internal floor level but to have the water pooling against the house is a disaster.

    It should be sloping away plus have the drainage channel along the house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    That would be my instinct but would say unlikely he will go for that.

    Drainage channel the length of patio is probably best I can hope for.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,664 ✭✭✭jackboy


    Just be careful and make sure he is capable of installing a neat effective drain. Looking at this job I wouldn’t just assume he has the ability.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    He has them bought for the side of house as he's putting concrete slab there and he's running it into down pipe.


    But of course he probably needs supervision at this point!

    Will have to see what he says on Tuesday... ugh.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I would see what he says before getting too upset yet however if he won't rectify it I wouldn't be afraid to go down the legal route. Too many are doing shoddy quick jobs for big money and just walking away



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,305 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    Any sort of aco channel fitted now along the wall of the house is only a short term solution to a long term problem. These channels will block and there will then be a huge risk of water penetration to the internal floors. Ultimately removing the whole thing and changing the direction of the fall is the only solution.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    Yes. I'm hoping when he sees it he will sort it out. But I wouldn't let this one slide even if only got 2000 from small claims that would go someway.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 757 ✭✭✭C. Eastwood


    Xcellor

    The workmanship in the flooded Patio is not in accordance with 3 of the 5 Purposes of the Building Regulations-for the Health Welfare and Safety of persons.

    To be in compliance with the Building Regulations where the external ground is level with the internal floor level should only accept for disabled persons access and a longitudinal drain must be fitted at the door ope.


    Furthermore, the external ground must be 150 mm below the DPC, to be in compliance with the Building Regulations. Except when the external ground level is raised up at a door ope to allow access for Disabled Persons. The other parts of the patio must be 150 mm below the DPC.

    My advice is - when something is not build correctly- tear everything down and go back to where it started to be done incorrectly.

    What kind of an incompetent Gob 💩 installs a Patio without using a level.

    Incompetent workmanship in the Building Industry is unbelievable.

    And it is so simple to do correct construction.

    Do not accept this crap, you will always be totally unsatisfied with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    I agree strongly with this. Aco drains are fine in theory, but in practice they are rarely a success. They are a maintenance burden an they inevitably block up if not kept after. A lip often develops between the channel edge and the paving, as often the paving subsides a tiny bit because I have yet to see a contractor who does proper compaction in layers. The result in ponding.

    Aco drains are often not very durable either. How many places have you seen aco drains with missing or bent gratings - nearly always. But a lot of the time that is down to incorrect specification and getting the cheapest. For example, in a petrol station forecourt it should be heavy duty D400 channels, but most builders buy the light duty A75 and hope no-one will pull them up on it.

    Long story short, footpaths and paved areas should always slope away from the building, unless there is a very good reason why they cannot.

    A lazy contractor is not a good enough reason.

    You need to bring him back and fúck him out of it to high heaven, then not pay him.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    He is mostly paid at this point- 1k left. Life lesson learned there...

    What he has done is really not good - throughout the job i spoke multiple times about drainage and moving water away from house which isn't something I should have to know anything about but in my own DIY i've found its generally good not to forget where water will gather etc.

    I am actually feeling sick with the whole thing, we had saved for the patio and were really looking forward to it and now it just feels like there is a problem there that we've paid for.

    😭



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,830 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    thats an absolute disaster. not only is the pooling an obvious problem, but the eventual staining and algae growth youre going to get on that will make it a death trap to walk on, directly outside your patio door.

    there should be both an obvious fall to drain storm water away from the house walls AND an acco drainage channel (min 100mm) the full length of the patio where it meets the wall (as rain will be wind blown to that area above your house DPC)

    take it up, do it again properly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    Tell him youve had redress at court before and have no problem going through the process again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,088 ✭✭✭The Continental Op



    Wake me up when it's all over.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    Why on earth did you pay him in advance? You caught yourself out here.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,407 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Tradesmen have consumers over a barrel at this stage. It is their rules or they just don't turn up to do the job so the OP may not have had much of a choice. Equally it is reasonable to pay a proportion up front as materials etc need to be purchased.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    Yeah, i felt that if it wasn't paid then he goes somewhere else...

    I paid up for the materials etc.

    Hindsight is a great thing. But unfortunately won't help me here :(



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,305 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    That's a bit extreme at this stage. The guy that made a balls of the job is due back with the OP today so let's hope some arrangement can be met.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    Threaten him with the tax man if he gives lip about not putting it right.

    Very few builders would be squeaky clean when it comes to tax affairs, so the threat of a tax audit might focus his mind.

    An the revenue have long known that building is a shady area when it comes to tax evasion so they will be only too happy to horse into him with an audit if a suspicion is brought to their attention.

    you could say to him that you have a brother in law who is an auditor in the Revenue Commissioners.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    OP I’m sorry for your trouble. That’s awful.

    live my patio booked in for July. Two people who quoted wanted to pave on top of existing path. Only one said he’ll need to dig up the path to ensure a proper slope - so there are plenty of cowboys out there. I hope you can get it rectified but it certainly does need urgent attention.

    Could I ask the experts something in addition ? So the patio should slope away from the house- great, but what then? Will you always get some pooling of water on a patio somewhere? Does the rain water all run into the grass at the end of the patio or what?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    Yeah it should just run off the end and soak away into the grass. As long as the grass or whatever is lower,obviously.

    You won't get ponding on the paving if it is laid at a consistent fall.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,516 ✭✭✭hesker


    Local conditions should be assessed to see if drainage channels are required at runoff perimeter. Above a certain area this is advised.

    pavingexpert.com is a great resource



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    There are walls surrounding the patio - part of the same job... The patio should have been laid to fall towards the wall and under patio there is a lot of 110 flexipipe which would carry the water down and into drain at side of house... Problem is the fall is the wrong way so water runs towards the house and the place where there is the worst drainage, sand + hardcore on top of existing concrete path so it drains VERY slowly...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 807 ✭✭✭CreadanLady


    Sure how is the water supposed to get into the 110 flexi pipe? Through the joints? That might work for a while and in light rain but the joints will clog up after a while and you'll just get ponding. Also, that flexi pipe is notoriously diffcult to lay at proper falls. How do you know that he laid the pipe to a proper fall and gave it a proper permeable surround? And where does it outfall to?

    Should be something like a couple of gullies or an aco drainage channel, discharging into a storm drain or to a soakaway.

    Also, if he laid some of the paving over the footpath on a thin bedding, and the rest of it on hardcore off the footpath, then, unless he compacted the hardcore really thoroughly (which I doubt, because the never do because it requires time and effort) then it is only a matter of time before you see a step forming along the old kerb line because the off-path paving is settling down more than the paving on the footpath.

    To be honest, this job sounds like an absolute dogs dinner by a total chancer that'll all have to be taken up and started from scratch.

    The MFV Creadan Lady is a mussel dredger from Dunmore East.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Xcellor


    I don't disagree with anything you've said. I just doubt he's going to be able to give a fulsome resolution... he has the money. Yeah I could take him to court maybe get a 2k judgement but that wouldn't cover the repair...

    This is the stuff of nightmares



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