Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

I was thinking along the same lines but the Ukrainians are not going to screw up Europe when they need their help so much.

What Western Europe (who don't have experience with Russian soldiers' boots on their heads) don't realise is that imperial Russia was NEVER in a state of "relative normality", never, ever.

The only period where its imperialistic expansionist genocidal tendencies were somewhat diminished was later stages of Gorbachev's tenure and Yeltsin's tenure. This was all due to economic exhaustion from the Cold War and turbulent times. After this brief period, once the economic situation got stabilised/consolidated somewhat, the Russian power complex (elite) again went back to its historical tradition of imperialistic chauvinism. This is a logical continuation of Russian evolution as a polity.

Edit: I should say that "stabilised" doesn't mean improved, in fact Yeltsin's reform programme was a disaster and the following great recession and consolidation of wealth under oligarchs' control lead to return to imperialistic chauvinist policies and Putinism.

Even if true that is all academic now. Zelensky has said he is prepared to give up on NATO membership as part of a broader peace settlement but clearly that's just one small piece of the jigsaw now. The way out of the current nightmare will only emerge when it becomes clear what Putin is prepared to settle for. And that may only be decided on the battlefield....

This is nonsense and stems from lack of experience with Russian regime thinking probably muddled by Russian disinformation war waged on all of us for 15 years.

Any sort of such public statement would make absolutely no difference. Ignoring the fact that NATO can't make such a statement as it would essentially deny its own foundations based on open door policy. As long as the country fulfils the required criteria and decides to apply, NATO is obliged to agree.

Furthermore, your critical mistake is in believing that appeasement works with chauvinist imperialistic regimes and tinpot dictators. It doesn't - appeasement didn't work with Hitler, Karadžič, Miloševič, Gaddafi, Assad...

You concede to a Russian dictator something, he takes it as a weakness and confirmation that he can do more, and squeeze more and destroy you.

Finally, this war has absolutely nothing to with NATO. This always has been only a secondary concern for the Russian dictatorship. It's about a pro-European Ukraine. Russia fears any former, what they think is, an excolony to fall into European sphere the most (generally speaking adopting European values, democracy etc). Because it shows the country can do much better in a democratic system and exposes how toxic dump the Russian authoritarian kleptocratic corrupted system is. If Ukraine and Ukrainians fare better under democratic pro-EU government the news spread into Russia and this threatens the kleptocracy in Russia directly. People will question, revolt, refuse to cooperate etc.

Edit - in fact this is what Russia did in 2014! Immediately after Ukraine got rid of the Russian puppet Yanukovich and set a clear strong course for democratic Ukraine in the EU, Russia started an insurgency and low scale invasion into Donbas using unmarked soldiers (against Geneva convention by the way).

Putin won't settle for anything. Either he wins or he's removed. Total War to the end it is, just like Hitler in 1944, there's no way back. He won't concede, ever. He'd be done internally. The whole purpose of this show is to consolidate even more power, a higher level of dictatorship if you wish. Total true fascism. He can't be seen as losing, that would be a disaster.

Correct, it would be a spectacularly stupid own goal. Zelensky and his administration are diplomatically very apt, they are totally winning it diplomatically and so far haven't made any serious mistake. Turning off gas would erase all the diplomatic gains they have accumulated to date. It woud be idiotic to do so. It would even damage their reputation and slim chances of EU membership.

The question is, what is a sufficiently meaty chunk?

Unfortunately it's the butcher who decides the size of the steak.

NATO being the issue is an age-old pretext Putin uses to validate his regional dominance aims, likewise Hitler used the same thing, to claim he was being "encircled" by defensive alliances.

Clare Daly is yet another useful idiot and national embarrassment, I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised to see her invited to the Alex Jones show, and of course RT. She's already been praised on Russian TV (because she parrots and validates their propaganda)

"The West should have", countries should have done many things in response to Putin's Russia. There's plenty of criticism to hand around, but we don't see these scapegoat excuses dragged out for the Iraq war or similar by the Clare Daly's types, interesting how their apologism only flows in one direction, so I'm not buying any of these convenient hindsight excuses.

If NATO never existed, Putin would have found another excuse, NATO is just a fig leaf to cover Putins expansionist intentions. See how the narrative is changing,,"De-Nazification" is now the most quoted reason. Last thing he wanted ( and went to war over to prevent it happening) was the existence of a successful Ukraine on his border with Russians looking on, and wondering why they cannot have a similar lifestyle. And that was an existential to Putin and his Oligarchs.

Good man, you obviously know far more than the head of the CIA and that Boston college professor. Or did you even bother to look at the interview?

The VAST majority of weapons and equipment being sent to the Ukraine is going as aid and will not be required to be paid back.

The rest of your post as usual is baby murderer apologist, conspiracy laden nonsense hidden behind captain hindsight level logic so doesn't bear addressing.

One might think the whole thing a set up- and one might be right - 2 sides have been planning on this for years - Russia and Ukraine- and Russia basically held all the cards - the United States main strenght here is they've nothing to lose ... And the upside is If Russia was stupid enough to invade then they've a lot to gain

Europe sleep walked in , no plan - no energy security -

We keep hearing how much of a strategic player Putin is - well it didn't work here ,even if Russia win , they've seriously weakened themselves and the perception of their military ...