Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

liamtech · 08-04-2022 12:28PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897020#Comment_118897020

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897834#Comment_118897834

I have read that article yes. And its chilling. I almost feel i have to choose my words carefully when describing it. To me, that document is effectively a Russian 'Final Solution to the Ukrainian Question' - Im sure many know about the Wansee Protocol (the meeting in Jan 1942, at which the NAZI's agreed on how to carry out the extermination of the Jews) - now i dont know if anyone has read the transcript of that meeting. Or documents associated with it. The language is starkly cold, methodical, and straight up. There is a film called 'Conspiracy' which i highly recommend btw. And you will simply see a bunch of bureaucrats and SS sitting around a table, openly discussing the 'problem' in terms of how to solve it.

The RIA document, and the video which @Brussels Sprout shared, remind me of the above. They are not comparable to anything else, IMHO. There is a sort of 'casual brutality' to this type of talk. And the language is similar, the choice of words. It doesnt (if i recall) use the word kill, or exterminate, - it talks about elimination. Of people, of an identity, of a country, and therein of a culture

It explains thoroughly the use of the word NAZI- This is now a 'catch all term' for anyone who opposes Russia - Therefore one must ask the question, what other countries could be considered 'NAZI'? The rest of Europe? The Baltics surely, Poland, et al
It equates Europeanization and 'desire for independence' with the above term - which is stark - Basically democracy could be considered an enemy of Russia, given the contents of this document
It justifies the infliction of 'total War' ala Von Clausewitz, upon the people of the Ukraine, as a punishment for going against Russia

It is pure and simple, a public call justifying a mass murder

liamtech · 08-04-2022 12:31PM

FOLLOWING FROM MY PREVIOUS POST

Apologies for the follow up post - But given the Ria Document -

I do not believe that anyone can compare Russian actions to NATO, or the West, or Iraq - The difference is pure and simple - any attempt at an analogy between Putin and GW Bush et al - is just barking mad at this stage

Putin and his regime are now only comparable to

Hitler
Mussolini
North Vietnam
The USSR in Afganistan

There may be more examples - but none of which are GW Bush, Blair, NATO - This should be quite clear now

Dohnjoe · 08-04-2022 12:34PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897240#Comment_118897240

Things will never go "back to relative normality" as long as Putin is in power, the cat is fully out of the bag in that respect. Keep in mind, Cuba and North Korea are still sanctioned since the sixties.

Certain sanctions could be removed as part of a peace deal, but that would be the only reason, otherwise, by default they'll stay (unless there's a dramatic political change in Moscow)

We are moving away from Russian oil, gas and other exports, the only question is how soon. The projection I read a few weeks ago was up to 80% by next year, but obviously there is massive pressure to speed that up. Very unlikely any EU countries will "go back" to any reliance on Putin's Russia after this.

When we move away from these imports (which should have started properly in 2014) then Putin won't have the EU "by the balls".

Sanctions and related restrictions, controls, etc are having and will most certainly have a significant impact on Russia. Where to even begin? For example, their airline industry is about to go back to the Soviet era, they can cannibalise the planes they've stolen, but with Boeing and Airbus refusing to do business there, they will run out of spare parts, thousands have already been laid off. You think anyone will ever lease that country a plane again? Their central bank can't touch hundreds of billons worth of good quality foreign cash, assets and gold (we know for a fact they did not expect this), these assets are critical to prop up the rouble in the medium and long term. Just recently the Chinese have refused to buy oil from them at rock bottom prices because of the sanctions, lack of oil sales could threaten to back up their oil to the well-heads, it took them 30 years to fix that when it happened previously. Their key tank factory has shut down because they don't have the spare parts. The largest shipping companies in the world are refusing to do business with them, docks are refusing to allow their ships to unload. Sure they can start to move business to BRICs nations, they'll have to, but nat resources switch requires infrastructure, requires willing clients, who wants to do business with a defaulted country? with a country that steals assets when they please? that steals foreign companies? having to step through a minefield of import controls and sanctions? It can be done of course, but it will be difficult and much more expensive for the Russia. They aren't exactly an economic powerhouse, a GDP a third less than Italy. The repercussions from this, even in a best cast scenario for Russia, are just endless.

The country isn't going to collapse, but there are no doubts it will be significantly impacted. Russian GDP is expected to contract around 8%-10% this year, for perspective, the contraction from the Covid pandemic globally was around a third of that for most economies.

As for all the sanctions on the oligarchs, it's mostly punitive, will hurt them individually, some more than others. These are the people who have directly profited from Putin's klepocracy and mafia state.

liamtech · 08-04-2022 12:38PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897166#Comment_118897166

I think the idea is to speed up a disentanglement from Russian supplied fuels - yes it might take some time but it is happening - One day, very soon IMHO - Europe will have disconnected completely from Russian Energy supply - And if it is done in a controlled way - It will seriously erode Russia even further

(I cannot see a blackout or anything like that unless Russia decides to pull the plug - which would backfire DRAMATICALLY IMHO - The EU would immediately refuse to pay anything, even for fuel that has already been delivered. I suspect too that it would also dramatically accelerate the process of disconnection - there would be 'Crash Programs' to fill the gap, meaning the black out, should it occur, would be solved in weeks if not days)

Its also encouraging to see discussions around Nuclear power, and alternative energy sources -

All IMHO of course - interested to see what all think

liamtech · 08-04-2022 12:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897223#Comment_118897223

Oh its a massive parallel for sure - Cult-like Trump supporters, and their Qanon Allies - a similar warped version of reality at play

Its a disconnection from reality - its Post Truth IMHO

Remember Gove saying 'people are fed up with experts' during the Brexit Debates? That for me was the beginning of Post Truth. Whereby people must be respected for looking at the facts, which all point one way, but them making the decision to go in the opposite direction

monseiur · 08-04-2022 12:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896524#Comment_118896524

I'm reading this with interest and I'm more that a little confused, perhaps someone here could explain the following to me - According to reports on Sky News last Tuesday or Wednesday night, the West is buying gas worth 850 million Euro from Russia on a daily basis, that's almost 6 Billion Euoro every week - This gas is flowing directly from Russia thru Ukraine to Europe totally uninterrupted by the war. As Ukraine are constantly pleading with the West to suspend all trading with Russia for the duration of the war one would expect them to stop this gas supply, or is the situation more complicated ???

Danzy · 08-04-2022 12:56PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898069#Comment_118898069

Putin is comparable to Lenin and Trotsky in the Ukraine in the 20s, Stalin in the 30s.

Hopefully he will remain in 3rd place in that pantheon of murder in the Ukraine.

If he does not then the world should have intervened.

liamtech · 08-04-2022 01:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898163#Comment_118898163

With the Caveat that this is probably very simplified

Yes that is the general state of affairs. The problem is that if they stop buying the gas, what do they replace it with? And its not a question of simply 'not having gas in ones home' for stoves and heating. Its about Power Generation

Take Germany as an example. Germany, (wrongly in my opinion) ceded to public pressure and ended their Nuclear Power Industry. They switched to Natural gas and other fuels, including some environmentally friendly options. But Gas and Oil is a MASSIVE part of their Power Generation infrastructure, And they get their Gas from Russia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Germany

Have a look at this list and you will see the problem -

It will take time for them to switch to other methods of generation - and the German people have a phobia around Nuclear (which for me is the long term and obvious choice)

peter kern · 08-04-2022 02:17PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898224#Comment_118898224

of course russia is also the worlds biggest seller for enriched uranium ...

liamtech · 08-04-2022 02:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898571#Comment_118898571

True but that is a virtue of its landmass - Uranium is quite common - i believe there are deposits in Donegal that are financially viable (with the greens in power they will NEVER actually be extracted though)

Also the Thorium Fuel cycle is probably going to be crucial - Thorium is abundant on the earth - and can easily be 'bred' into U233 (a science grad friend explained it to me by saying Thorium is Fertile - convert to U233 which is Fissile) - the use of Fast Breeder reactors

I dont think Russia can take advantage on a renewed western dependence on Nuclear Fuel - they would be only one of Dozens of countries that could supply/produce fuel

Brussels Sprout · 08-04-2022 02:51PM

Everyone knows that there is about to be a massive ramp-up in the war in the Donbas. With that in mind the Ukrainian government has told it's civilians who are in the Ukrainian held parts of that region to get out of there immediately. They duly attempted to do so. Yesterday I saw an image of the train station in the city of Kramatorsk (roughly 30km from the front-lines) with showed thousands of people outside who were trying to get on the trains to the west.

The Russians went ahead and bombed that train station this morning. The current numbers are 39 dead with many more injured. They used ballistic missiles that were apparently loaded with cluster munitions. So they targeted an area densely packed with people standing with munitions designed to carpet bomb an area.

How can you deal with that kind of evil?

What's more there is this

https://twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/1512359088646201349

The confirmed dead include 4 children.

liamtech · 08-04-2022 03:10PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fW5uzaIXfSc

Ed Nash (previously posted some of his vids) analyzes the nature of Military assistance which can/will be offered to Ukraine - and difficulties that are faced doing so - Ed is a decent source for anyone following the Hard Military side of this war

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmLBhKlmKzo

Another of his videos from last week

kravmaga · 08-04-2022 03:14PM

Russia just keep on committing more war crimes on a daily basis now in the Ukraine.

When is NATO going to wake up and stop this atrocities and war crimes.

Its very difficult to watch this going on and feel powerless.

Is it time for the Irish govt to expel the Russian Ambassador and the entire chancery in Orwell Road now.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/08/first-thing-people-killed-in-russian-strike-on-train-station-in-eastern-ukraine

liamtech · 08-04-2022 03:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898785#Comment_118898785

Its just another disgusting part of the Russian narrative - mimicking the historical practice during WW2 and Post 9/11 where soldiers used to write slogans on their munitions - its disgusting. Using historical morale boosting methods to perpetrate crimes against humanity - utterly detestable from Russia - sadly not surprising

Brussels Sprout · 08-04-2022 03:17PM

Update on the Railway Station massacre. 50 people now confirmed dead including 5 children.

it sounds like it was an absolute bloodbath with the "survivors" having suffered horrific injuries.

https://twitter.com/KSergatskova/status/1512379454059859970

Cluster bombing a location where civilians were known to be packed together, outdoors......Jesus Christ.

Somebody somewhere made the decision to target that location with that specific weapon knowing exactly what the outcome would be. It's utterly utterly depraved.

monseiur · 08-04-2022 03:25PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898224#Comment_118898224

It proves, yet again, that the first casualty of war is the truth. The sheer hypocrisy of the message in the video you posted (post no. 4657) is more stomach churning than some of the gruesome scenes in the actual video. Ukraine is supposed to have 40 trillion cubic feet of natural gas and currently produce 70% of their own domestic requirements so they are not exactly depending on Russia.

Zelenskyy (2 y's!) and his sidekicks are, on the one hand, producing hypocritical propoganda videos & lecturing the rest of us about not trading with Russia and yet when you scratch the surface he's aiding and abetting the very opposite of what he preaches. He and his cronies are just puppets and Germany and other powerful countries are pulling the strings. Zelenskyy was a small time comedian has no political or military background, if the whole thing wasn't so serious not just for Ukrainains but the rest of Europe ...it would be funny. If Ukrainians are paying with their lives surely Germany et al could survive without gas for say 5 months, the serious loss of revenue to Russia may bring them to their senses and force them to the peace table. With a spineless hyprocite TV creation like Zelenskyy as leader I fear for the future of Ukraine and it's people.

Brussels Sprout · 08-04-2022 03:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898959#Comment_118898959

Sigh. Ok, I'll bite. Why are you calling Zelensky a hypocrite?

08-04-2022 03:39PM

But lads, it's NATO's fault. Putin had no choice.

Fu(king animals intentionally bombing civilians and we have threads full of their mouthpieces and useful idiots doing anything to deflect.

As for People Before Profit et al? Don't even get me started

circadian · 08-04-2022 03:45PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898959#Comment_118898959

Noone has said Ukraine is depending on Russia to meet their needs, they already cut themselves off before this invasion. I don't see the hypocrisy? Where? That thousands of Ukranians are being killed daily by the Russian invasion? Where's the hypocrisy? I don't see Ukraine invading and pillaging neighbouring countries for their natural resources.

If Germany were pulling the strings then we wouldn't be in this mess, the Germans (and Europe in general) are getting hammered with rising energy costs, pulling strings to start a war (is this what you're saying? I don't even know) makes absolutely no sense. As for Zelenskyy being spineless, he has shown to be the absolute opposite of that. He hasn't been airlifted out, he's not hiding in a bunker in the Urals, he's not spouting off lies or instigating an invasion, he's on the ground in Kyiv and until recently was under constant shelling. Your post makes little sense of the reality of what's actually happening.

odyssey06 · 08-04-2022 03:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898959#Comment_118898959

Your post seemed to take a wrong turn somewhere... it a reasonable point about Germany being asked to make sacrifices but your rant about Zelensky is utterly without merit or foundation.

You found that post stomach churning rather the the actual atrocities inflicted by Russia? Seriously??

You fear for the future of Ukraine because of Zelensky as opposed to who, some Russian stooge like the Belarussian lapdog? You don't fear for the future of Ukraine and its people if Russia have free reign to do with it as they please? You need to explain what you think some alternate Ukranian president could have done short of surrendering, and seeing their sovereignty extinguished.

How is Zelensky 'spineless'? He has death squads after him, he could have fled on the day #1 of the invasion.

How is he a hypocrite that is aiding and abetting the opposite of what he preaches?

I think you need to recalibrate your moral and intellectual compass.

pixelburp · 08-04-2022 03:47PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898922#Comment_118898922

And yet some would somehow try to say "yes, but NATO..." in this situation, and try to equivocate over the responsibility for all this; as if the final burden of guilt should be on the shoulders of "The West" because Russia simply had to invade and bomb civilian targets. If only we left Ukraine well alone, Putin would never have countenanced crossing the border ~~again~~.

Ahorseofaman · 08-04-2022 04:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898959#Comment_118898959

Zelenskyy spineless?Laughable.He stayed in his office in a warzone for 6 weeks now in a city surrounded and under constant attack while brave Vlad sits 20 metres away from his cohorts lest he catch a cold as his soldiers die and are maimed in there thousands and his empire crumbles beneath him.

Away with you.

liamtech · 08-04-2022 04:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898959#Comment_118898959

Your post makes no sense at all - as someone else pointed out it seems to jump track several times- And attacking Zelenskyy is outrageous TBH - Russia clearly intended him to jump on a plane, and flee - and then they would simply take over the country - He didn't do this precisely because he is NOT a Comedian or a Hypocrite

What are you talking about? Seriously? Im almost torn between wanting an adequate explanation - and not wanting one for fear it will send my blood-pressure into an upward death spiral

If you have something concrete to say - then by all means

Dohnjoe · 08-04-2022 04:40PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898959#Comment_118898959

Whenever I see the phrase "first casualty of war is the truth" in a post, I know what is going to follow.

But please, go ahead and explain what Zelensky(y) is "aiding and abetting" and why?

Yeah he was a comedian, what is your point with that?

He won with a landslide, he didn't flee with bombs landing in the capital and death squads after him (in fact most of his cabinet stayed, some have taken up arms) and he is doing an excellent job given the horrendous circumstances, he's been nothing but the epitome of what a war-time leader should be. Yet, according to you, he's "spineless" and a "hypocrite", explain?

monseiur · 08-04-2022 05:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899034#Comment_118899034

Just a samll example - Zelenskyy gave out stink to Swis company Nestlé for trading with Russia implying they were helping the war chest of his agressor. Fair enough, any reasonable person would agree. Yet as he was spouting this s--- billons of Euro worth of Russian gas was passing in a pipe right 'under his feet' on it's way to Europe. He lacks the spine to stop this flow of cash into Russia's war chest. Granted some powerful countries would suffer in the short term but his people are dying and difficult situtations sometimes require unpopular actions. Zelenskyy fought 80% of his presidental campaingn on social media, it takes a little more than being media savy to fight a war.

odyssey06 · 08-04-2022 05:14PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899387#Comment_118899387

Why doesnt Germany and other EU countries stop buying Russian gas? They are led by career politicians.

Could you explain how years of peacetime political experience would help in the novel situation of invasion and war?

How do you those countries would react if Ukraine uniltaterally decided to cut off pipelines? And is that not a factor in Zelenskys thinking?

Your claim some alternative career politician Ukranian president wouldnt be 'spineless' or 'hypocritical' and would cut off the pipeline is completely without merit or foundation based on what you have provided to support the level of vitriol directed at Zelensky.

It is a red flag you are so worked up about Zelenskys perceived inactions than Russian actions and atrocities.

Brussels Sprout · 08-04-2022 06:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118899387#Comment_118899387

Ahhh - so that's what you were getting at in your earlier post (it really was difficult to make sense of it)

So, you think that Zelensky is a coward because he hasn't taken the decision to unliterally switch off the gas supply to Europe.

No, he's not a coward. He's just not an idiot. Despite what you may think he is a very capable politician and he realises that such an action would be a monumental own goal.

Ukraine is currently massively reliant on the good will of those neighbours. They are literally keeping them in this war. They are accepting their refugees and they are supplying them with weapons and other critical supplies. Yes the UK and the USA have been a massive help as well but they couldn't do it without the support of the countries in the vicinity of Ukraine who they use as logistics hubs.

Currently Ukraine enjoys almost universal support in all of those countries and the EU in general. There would be no surer way to endanger or possibly kill that support then by switching off the gas supplies unilaterally.

McGiver · 08-04-2022 06:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897432#Comment_118897432

Nope. Don't want to go off topic but "left-right" political scale is inadequate and obsolete.

Le Pen is economically left and socially authoritarian. "Far-right" is a mislabel.

Le Pen is similarly misrepresented as ‘extreme right wing’. Her extemism is in her social attitudes, not her economics. Indeed France’s National Front has often been economically to the left of the pre-Hamon Socialist Party in its attachment to the public sector and opposition to globalisation and privatisation. The party, with its strong strain of nationalism, might well be described as a form of national socialism.

https://www.politicalcompass.org/france2017

McGiver · 08-04-2022 06:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118898055#Comment_118898055

They mention who is Nazi there - the whole Europe, and broadly anyone who opposes Russia, essentially the whole "West".

McGiver · 08-04-2022 06:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897834#Comment_118897834

Yep, that's it. You got the Russian terminology behind the made up placeholder terms. They can't say directly "Ukrainian" so they say "Nazi"...

I think liamtech's assessment is correct - this is very similar to various maniacal "Final Solution" treatises in the past. The Nazi one being a good analogy. And now this closes the "doublethink" circle - Putinists are actually Nazis, but they justify their Nazism by grounding it in ideology of Denazification. Denazificating Nazis!

What is even more bizarre, Putinist propaganda calls the Ukrainian representatives and population fascists but they call the process of cleaning the fascists a denazification.

Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

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