Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

corkie · 07-04-2022 09:37PM

@liamtech Thanks for your well informed post here.

I'm not great at expressing/drafting a good opinion to post here and afraid having them ripped to shreds by some posters.

Also don't want to drag this thread into a discussion about 'Putin', given his high profile, and degree of deliberate obscurity, we don't know much about him. His daughters have been sanctioned. But ....

Mr Putin's daughters, who the US believes help him hide his wealth, have never confirmed publicly the Russian leader is their father, and he has refused to answer questions about them.

That is probably more for their protection, so they don't become targets for blackmail or worse.

On his religious views, found a good extract from a book (The Mighty and the Almighty (2017)) here.

Under Communism, the Church was a threat to the state as a body closely associated with power structures, a rival ideology and capable of inspiring the affection and support of a large proportion of the Russian population. Putin, however, is on record as seeing that attitude as a mistake on the part of the USSR. The Church, for Putin, has a significant and powerful value in forging a strong Russian state. Under Putin, the Church and nationalism are increasingly closely united. The Church serves a powerful role in supporting Putin’s true political ideology – his identity as a gosudarstvennik[xxi]or ‘Statist’. The “Russian Idea” as described by Putin in his so–called ‘Millennium Message’, delivered in 1999 and still seen as the core of his political model, includes patriotism, collectivism, solidarity and derzhavnost (destiny to be a great power). Religion, even were Putin not religious himself, has a very clear and obvious instrumental value in meeting those goals.

So he may not be religious but just using the church for his own reasons.

@Pussyhands Thought of you here when they announced that Volodymyr Zelensky to address Dáil and Seanad on April 6

liamtech · 07-04-2022 09:44PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895974#Comment_118895974

Religion is a tool for sure - its an important one - i just think Putin is ideologically vacuous - he is what ever he needs to be - if 80% of Russia became vegan (hypothetically) - he would do so (publicly) - and find some way of tying the decision to patriotism - its all about maintaining a strong base

07-04-2022 10:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896006#Comment_118896006

Kirill with his own shady past, has been pretty much hand in hand with Putin in relation to Ukraine and other issues as the relationship has mutual benefits.

Political leaders referring to God or prayer isn't anything unusual in itself. It is usually the ones who are the most corrupt or crazy, who really ramp up the religious angle to appeal to that section of their base, especially when what they are selling has little grounds in reality, such as GW Bush, Trump and Putin.

liamtech · 07-04-2022 11:06PM

https://www.thejournal.ie/von-der-leyen-kyiv-5733081-Apr2022/

Another half a billion going to the Ukraine - im remaining politically correct

but inside im shouting GET IN! NICE!!!!! BRAVO BRUSSELS!

jmreire · 07-04-2022 11:22PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896284#Comment_118896284

I remember during the Balkan war Milosevic went to the Patriarch of Belgrade and head of the Serbian Orthodox Church hoping to get his support and endorsement. He asked Pavle who was right in the conflict. Pavle replied " God knows who is right". This was not the answer Milosevic was expecting, and it did not do him any favors with the general population. It was a bad call on Milosevic's part.

jmreire · 07-04-2022 11:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895320#Comment_118895320

.

liamtech · 08-04-2022 12:13AM

https://twitter.com/johnson/status/1512043471753949185?s=20&t=KL2u86R7_uBH9oCsO6K2Kw

Powerful video - not sure if it was posted before - i just got hold of it - its emotive and sends the message loud and clear

The Baltic states being more inclined to the ban is not surprising they suffered more during the Cold War than the Warsaw Part Satellites -

josip · 08-04-2022 12:15AM

What is the reason for delaying the ban on coal imports until August?

jace_da_face · 08-04-2022 12:22AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895633#Comment_118895633

A victory by Ukraine in this war would completely redraw the security boundaries within Europe, in a way that would curb Putin's advances and thereby benefit the EU and democracy. NATO may well need to resist all measures to help Ukraine directly, but the the EU has an immediate imperative to do otherwise. Brussels will not, or should not, pontificate about the pros and cons of Ukraine membership to the EU. The Ukraine is effectively fighting a West - East war on our behalf. If you do not understand the urgency of why Ukraine must be accepted into EU membership, then you do not appreciate what a lost Ukraine means to European security and Putin's expansionism.

08-04-2022 12:37AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896378#Comment_118896378

Was that not the answer he gave when asked to deny that Serb forces had committed atrocities in Kosovo.

If I remember at the time a lot of the Orthodox Church in Serbia weren't happy with Milosevic as the property that had been confiscated from them (and other religions) by Tito hadn't been returned and the teaching of religion was still banned in schools.

While under Putin a greasing of the palms so to say, with laws against LGBT people and the number of churches being built has Kirill claiming that Putin is a miracle of God.

While I am not comparing Pavle in anyway to Kirill, who by most accounts is a crook at the very least, it shows how giving some power and financial opportunities to religious leaders can benefit a despot.

08-04-2022 01:14AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896527#Comment_118896527

At a guess stockpiling and allowing time for finding/negotiating new sources.

eire4 · 08-04-2022 06:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895809#Comment_118895809

Well their application to join was accepted by the European Parliament in overwhelming fashion. So it is now in the hands of the European Commission and while I do not see any kind of expedited process there I do think eventually Ukraine will be accepted and become part of the EU.

pixelburp · 08-04-2022 08:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896537#Comment_118896537

I don't necessarily disagree about Ukraine entering into the EU in principle, or the nature of the conflict writ large across the geopolitics of a Belligerent Russia; indeed, I think this conflict has forced us to reconcile our (over)dependence on a state with little to no regard for European nicities - it just suited us to look the other way. I simply don't believe there's an appetite in the halls that make the decisions regards accession. The EU Parliament might have greenlit the application with a degree of gusto but that has smelt like a token gesture of solidarity; it ain't the parliament that makes the ultimate decision. My speculation would be there's more enthusiasm toward expansion into the Balkans - with Albania, North Macedonia, Montenegro et al themselves already in the process - rather than taking on what would become the EU's first post-war rebuild project.

johnnyskeleton · 08-04-2022 08:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118895124#Comment_118895124

I wonder does it indicate that, despite the rhetoric, Russia still cares at some level what people in the rest of Europe think of them? Theyre certainly keen to point out when pro Kremlin MEPs either support them or at least dont condemn them.

Liam suggests that it might just be for domestic consumption i.e. he went on to dispell the Western lies, but I'm not sure. If they show the car crash parts of the interview then Russian people will think Peskov is weak. If they have a highly selective edit of it with a false narrative, then why not just lie and say he wanted to go on but they wouldnt let him speak etc.

I have to conclude that Russia is now trying to normalise relations with other European countries, starting with their frienemies in the UK. It may be a shaky interview, but the important point is to show that Russia havent retreated into themselves diplomatically. But again I dont really know.

Thought it was bizzare that his defence to the footage of Iryna Filkina being killed was to say that the "V" identifier was not on the tank that actually fired. In this crazy war, its not beyond the beyonds that he thinks there are so many faulty tanks everywhere that the Russian tanks sat there powerless as some unidentified tank drove all the way up amongst them and fired on a civilian. The Russian armys incompetence could be set up for their denials of war crimes. "Our troops are so bad that they probably couldnt even hit an unarmed civilian who dismounted from her bike"

Markcheese · 08-04-2022 08:47AM

Even the accession process is start ... It forms a structure to build towards , as well as a level of European free trade - even without Russia's invasion accession would have been a mountain for Ukraine to climb , they were starting from such a low point. .

McGiver · 08-04-2022 09:14AM

@liamtech

I don't know if this was shared here. If anyone had any sort of slightest doubt that my posts here about Russian regime were an exaggeration or taken too far, I think this dispels any such doubts.

This is an article from RIA Novosti, a major large state controlled Russian newspaper, called "What Russia should do with Ukraine", dated 3 April 2022.

https://ria.ru/20220403/ukraina-1781469605.html

Just ask the browser to auto-translate...

Some "highlights", emphasis added:

Unlike, say, Georgia and Baltic countries, Ukraine, as history has shown, is impossible as a nation-state, and attempts to "build" one naturally lead to Nazism. Ukrainism is an artificial anti-Russian construction that does not have its own civilizational content, a subordinate element of an alien and alien civilization. Debanderization alone will not be enough for denazification – the Bandera element is only a performer and a screen, a disguise for the European project of Nazi Ukraine, so the denazification of Ukraine is also its inevitable de-Europeanization.

The Bandera elite must be liquidated, its re-education is impossible. The social "swamp", which actively and passively supported it by action and inaction, must survive the hardships of the war and assimilate the experience as a historical lesson and redemption of its guilt. Those who did not support the Nazi regime, suffered from it and the war in Donbass unleashed by it, should be consolidated and organized, should become the support of the new government, its vertical and horizontal. Historical experience shows that the tragedies and dramas of wartime benefit peoples who are seduced and carried away by the role of the enemy of Russia.

The operation to denazify Ukraine, which began with the military phase, will follow in peacetime the same logic of stages as the military operation. At each of them, it will be necessary to achieve irreversible changes, which will be the results of the corresponding stage. In this case, the necessary initial steps of denazification can be determined as follows:

– liquidation of armed Nazi formations (which are understood as any armed formations of Ukraine, including the Armed Forces of Ukraine), as well as the military, information, educational infrastructure that ensures their activity;

– the formation of people's self-government bodies and militia (defense and law and order) of the liberated territories, protecting the population from the terror of underground Nazi groups;

– installation of the Russian information space;

– the confiscation of educational materials and the prohibition of educational programmes at all levels containing Nazi ideologies;

– mass investigative actions to establish personal responsibility for war crimes, crimes against humanity, the dissemination of Nazi ideology and support for the Nazi regime;

– lustration, the publication of the names of accomplices of the Nazi regime, their involvement in forced labor to restore the destroyed infrastructure as a punishment for Nazi activities (from among those who will not be subject to the death penalty or imprisonment);

– the adoption at the local level, under the supervision of Russia, of primary normative acts of denazification "from below", the prohibition of all types and forms of revival of Nazi ideology;

– establishment of memorials, memorial signs, monuments to the victims of Ukrainian nazism, perpetuation of the memory of the heroes of the struggle against it;

– the inclusion of a set of anti-fascist and denazification norms in the constitutions of the new people's republics;

– establishment of permanent denazification bodies for a period of 25 years.

This is an ideological state propaganda piece and is so insane that us, the people from the democratic world ("the West") could just dismiss it as some batshíte crazy conspiracy theories or irrelevant OPed. Apart from the fact that this is official Russian regime propaganda in a high profile newspaper and they actually mean what they write, they really do mean it. It's a good example of the typical Russian "doublethink" and "reverse projection" technique – it's logically contradictory and inconsistent and also at the same time is a projection of Russian objectives and behaviour projected towards Ukraine (i.e. Russians are blaming Ukraine of things they are actually doing/planning on doing in reality).

If one reads the whole drivel then the logical conclusion is justification of total occupation of Ukraine, establishment of a totalitarian pro-Russian puppet regime, political cleansing including elimination of any sort of opposition and finally elimination of Ukraine as an entity, as a nation, forced Russification and basically a justification for a genocide. This has been done times and times again by Russian regimes in the past (Tzarist, Leninist, Stalinist etc).

As mentioned in the article from Sofi Oksanen I posted recently, Russian regimes always create an artificial boogeyman, label a certain nation as null and void of humanity, which then justifies Russian "liberation" (translate = conquest, occupation, Russification and genocide).

This article is and example of Orwell's 1984 unraveling in front of our eyes right now, right now in Russia.

McGiver · 08-04-2022 09:26AM

OK, so the Brussels diplomatic EU bubble which was moaning and complaining when the Czech, Polish and Slovenian PMs visited Zelensky in Kyiv few weeks back to provide diplomatic and moral support to Ukraine is probably not moaning anymore, I guess...

Von der Layen and Slovak PM en route to Kyiv to visit Zelensky:

(3) Eduard Heger on Twitter: "In #Ukraine w/ @vonderleyen & we'ready to discuss our proposals for helping 🇺🇦 w/ @ZelenskyyUa & @Denys_Shmyhal. To help getting #EU perspective by creating a #ReformTeam. To offer options for transporting #grains, incl.#wheat & to increase the use of 🇸🇰#HumanitarianHub. https://t.co/qvm2cxJ9xV" / Twitter

Very glad that this previous Czech, Polish, Slovenian move challenged the appeasement and cowardice currents in the EU bubble and made this possible. I don't think VdL would have visited at all or so early on if the previous visit didn't take place. This visit is a huge support for Ukraine and big "feck off" to Russia.

Now, I'm asking - where are Macron and Scholz hiding?

Scholz - Scholz holds up German tank deliveries to Ukraine – POLITICO

Macron - busy calling Putin and trying to win election.

Whilst the other French presidential candidate, essentially a French National Socialist, is an outright traitor:

"The solution of cutting gas and petrol imports [from Russia], that will be a tragedy for French families" she told French radio RTL.

"I’m sorry to tell you, my priority is to defend the purchasing power of French families"

Not a very good outlook on French and German horizon, if you ask me...

pixelburp · 08-04-2022 09:33AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897081#Comment_118897081

To be fair to Macron, and I have no time nor support for him and his politics, I'd be keeping my head entirely focused on winning the election too - not when there are not just one, but two, far-right politicians making serious inroads into French politics. The last thing the EU needs is a far-right politician leading one of its central national pillars; France needs its leader fully concentrating on the task of winning the election. Indeed, flitting off to Kyiv would probably play into the hands of those extremists at home.

Pussyhands · 08-04-2022 09:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896524#Comment_118896524

I get the message from Zelensky and understand it and it's true, but at the same time the EU can't just throw all our economies and people under a bus either just to stop buying oil or gas from Russia because it's not a guarantee the war ends anyways. Russia can sell to others.

The very future of the EU could depend on it. If the EU put Ukrainians as no.1 priority and EU state citizens were left starving or in the cold...then you'll just end up with far right governments who are anti EU and the whole region is destabilized.

It's all well and good for rich people to say do it when they can get by. But when you have the poorer people being sacrificed for Ukraine, put yourself in their shoes. Do you think someone who can't afford their heating or electricity will be in support of their bills going up even further just to try and help Ukrainians? People have their own lives and wellbeing to look after.

odyssey06 · 08-04-2022 09:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897166#Comment_118897166

Broadly speaking yes I think people see the necessity of it when they see Russia bring atrocity after atrocity to Europe. This isn't just about what flag flies.

Look at the Manchester cotton workers in the American Civil War who supported the Union blockade despite the financial hardship it caused them.

It is the poorest Eastern countries who are most in favour of strongest measures. You could argue that is because they are also concerned about their security from Russia. But we are all in the EU. If they have those concerns, it means the spillover could also affect the EU as a whole. Russia needs to be stopped. Enabling Russia has consequences too and it's not that simple for Russia to switch who it sells gas to anymore than it is that simple for EU to switch sources.

yagan · 08-04-2022 09:52AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896006#Comment_118896006

I can see a lot of parallels with the populist holy causes of MAGA and Brexit, although the current greater Russia fantasy has entered a lethal phase.

All three movements have led to a diminishment of stature. Russia by its aggression is increasingly a pariah state, the USA under Trump's arrogance has seen its leading role in the TPP being upstaged by the RCEP, and Brexit with its self imposed trade sanctions has relegated itself from the premiership to national league.

All three with their competing territorialism defined the 20th century. It's often overlooked that many in the early 1930s believed the next big global war would be between the USA and UK.

Pussyhands · 08-04-2022 09:55AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896916#Comment_118896916

Putin has been looking to keep EU relations all along, hence why he is in constant contact with Macron.

Has to be remembered that things will probably go back to relative normality. Imposing sanctions to stop a war are meaningless if those sanctions are not reversible in the case of the war stopping...otherwise why would the war stop?

And the intention to move away from Russian oil and gas is a nice idea but there's been a lot of investments made so it won't be easy. And if Germany for example are not wanting to stop their oil imports NOW then even if they did eventually stop them, they'll just start them up again when the war ends and people have moved onto the next story. I don't think getting Saudi oil is any better than Russia in any case.

I watched a documentary on RTE called "The Road to Putins War" a couple weeks back and from watching it, Putin the bastard knows how to get what he wants. He knows he has the EU by the balls. He wouldn't have gone into Ukraine without knowing the impacts.

All these sanctions, all these oligarchs having assets seized...has it had any impact? Doesn't look like it's had much.

McGiver · 08-04-2022 10:05AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897124#Comment_118897124

Le Pen incorrectly labelled "far-right" but in reality she is a Nationalist Socialist i.e. Nazi - take away the nationalist element and you have got a VERY left wing working class Socialist (free for all, anti-market, dirigisme, statist) economic policy which even Melanchon wouldn't disagree with.

VinLieger · 08-04-2022 10:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897240#Comment_118897240

If Putin had really wanted Europe by the balls he would have invaded at the start of Winter and not the end. Now we have 7-8 months to prepare for next winter without Russian oil gas and coal which is absolutely possible. We cant replace 100% of what we got from them and it may be a hard winter but it could have been a lot worse if Putin had timed it better. Now things are going to move a lot faster towards energy independence along with more renewables as theres a far greater incentive to do so than there ever was, so in the medium to longterm Russia will never regain anywhere close to the business we used to give it even if sanctions end, this is among the many strategic errors he made.

The sanctions could take months to affect the oligarchs. Wait till the summer when they are unable to bathe out on their superyachts because they've been seized or for those who have managed to move them outside of sanctioned countries they arent going to be happy when they realise they wont be able to take them anywhere outside of Vladivostok.

Retr0gamer · 08-04-2022 10:29AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897301#Comment_118897301

Nonsense. It's just right wing populism. Promise reforms, get in power and bleed the country dry, ala Boris and his cadre of crooks.

yagan · 08-04-2022 10:35AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897344#Comment_118897344

Added to that voters of the EU (aside from those who vote for Orban, Wallace and Daly) won't want to be dependent on energy imports when it leaves their wallet vulnerable.

This will only drive more energy efficiency and greater EU structural integration. I can see the French law that bans flights if there's a comparable train option available becoming EU wide. Obviously it would affect outlying parts like Ireland and Cyprus, but the in mainland Europe greater transport integration will have a massive impact on the bloc energy use.

fly_agaric · 08-04-2022 10:48AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896912#Comment_118896912

This all kind of depends on the enthusiasm of the accession candidate as well. I haven't followed it much but have impression they (some of countries you mention) have been (IMO) kind of playing about with idea of EU membership while they also court patronage off China or indeed Russia, and try to do the absolute bare minimum to make it look like they are working towards EU membership eventually to keep aid/development funds flowing from the EU.

The public and politicians in these countries are often divided over EU membership (they badly want the money and the freedom of movement but maybe not the rest of the obligations and changes to society etc. that goes with it). On the EU side it does not need another 5 or 6 Hungarys and Polands that are fighting the rest of the members over everything, roadblocking EU level decisions. potentially using their veto power to win concessions for themsleves or worse if asked to by Putin or Xi Jinping, while their corrupt leaders rob the EU structural funds money-pot to enrich themselves and buy votes.

However there might be quite a will in Ukraine to work hard on reforms required by accession process if they can survive this war, and alot of will on EU side to see them enter quite quickly if they do that, given what they have suffered through.

But I think the EU maybe needs some procedural reforms too before new members come in. The veto needs to go in most areas and there needs to be some automatic mechanism that begins to kick in when a member demonstrably starts to go back on all the accession reforms they made (beginning with funding cuts, Council voting rights taken away, kind of an escalating process ending in effective expulsion from the EU). There could be some time (but not infinite amounts of time) remaining to get that done while new members get ready.

jmreire · 08-04-2022 11:34AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118896567#Comment_118896567

No comparison between Pavle and Kirill. It was a common sight to see Pavle walking the streets in Belgrade, by himself, no fancy airs and graces. A good man. Kirill on the other hand is the complete opposite....as much a mafia as Putin. There are many Russian Orthodox clergy who have spoken out against him because he is condoning Putins war. And he has caused rifts within the global Orthodox Church, most of which oppose his views. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church has split from the Russian Orthodox and despite Kirills claim to be the supreme Orthodox leader, he is not recognised as such in Ukraine, with good reason.

By not agreeing with Milosevic Pavle was effectively not supporting him in Kosova, but he did gave him the green light to negotiate the end of the Bosnian war in 1995.

Brussels Sprout · 08-04-2022 11:44AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118897020#Comment_118897020

Coincidentally as I was reading this I saw this pop up on my feed:

https://twitter.com/francska1/status/1512348114254020609