Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

I'm not an apologist for Putin. You are a fanatical liar.

Wondering whether sanctions are effective isn't a shade of grey, it's literally the ability to think.

Please make these kinds of accusations against people in the real world under your own name so you can face the consequences (defamation lawsuits)

Nordner , just for your information I was in both Syria and Libya, so here's what I saw. In 2011, after several years of crop failure, with the worst ones in 2010-2011, people has been leaving the countryside where they were unable to feed themselves and congregating in the Cities. To draw attention to their plight, they began having peaceful protest's. This went on for some time , without issue. Then they started to get bigger and bigger and this was when the Govt started to get concerned, but instead of having discussions ( they were seen as as sign of weakness) Assad sent his brother to deal with the protesters. Shots were fired, in the city of Homs, and that was the beginning of the war in Syria. To this day, its still debated who fired the first shots, Assad's people, or the protesters? General opinion is that it was Assads people. In a previous confrontation / revolt in 1982, Assad's father Hafaz, destroyed the city of Hama. The resultant death toll inc. civilians numbered 40'000 people. These wars had nothing to do with either the Americans or Oil. They were internal revolutions, but once they started, especially the 2011 civil war, then you had external actors taking part in their own vested interests. We are currently seeing how the interests of Russia are playing out, in the wholesale long range destruction of cities in Ukraine, mirroring Russian strategy which was perfected in Syria.

Similarly in Libya, Ghadaffi was facing revolt from his own people, and in typical dictator fashion, he ruthlessly tried to suppress them, killing up 25'000 before the USNC resolution ordered a bombing campaign to end the slaughter. In my time there, I only heard thanks and praise for the UNSC intervention. In any town I was in, no one had anything good to say about Ghadaffi. In a strongly Islamic country, he was not seen as a good Muslim, which is a first requirement in any Islamic Country. So what ever happened after the war started, it was started by the Libyans themselves.

British are sending their equivalent too.

21st century flying columns with latest tech are a very dangerous enemy indeed.

I actually thanked your comment and then had to unthank it when I got to the last half-sentence.

Its sad that you're so intellectually and emotionally exhausted that you feel you have to accuse anyone with even a slightly different take of being a pro-Russian traitor.

"In July 2011 Iran, Iraq and Syria said they planned to sign a contract potentially worth around $6bn to construct a pipeline running from South Pars towards Europe, via these countries and Lebanon and then under the Mediterranean to a European country, with a refinery and related infrastructure in Damascus.[10][11][12] In November 2012 the United States dismissed reports that construction had begun on the pipeline, saying that this had been claimed repeatedly and that "it never seems to materialize." A framework agreement was to be signed in early 2013, with costs estimated at $10bn;[13] however, construction plans were delayed by the Syrian Civil War.[3"

Just prior to that agreement being signed, this happened

"The Qatar-Turkey pipeline was a proposal to build a natural gas pipeline from the Iranian–Qatari South Pars/North Dome Gas-Condensate field towards Turkey, where it could connect with the Nabucco pipeline to supply European customers as well as Turkey. One route to Turkey was via Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Syria, and another was through Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Iraq. Syria's rationale for rejecting the Qatar proposal was said to be "to protect the interests of [its] Russian ally, which is Europe's top supplier of natural gas"

Tell me why you believe this has no bearing on what happened in Syria? Especially as Qatar was one of the biggest donors to rebel groups operating there!?!?

As for Libya

What was NATO's violent intervention in Libya really all about? Now we know, writes Ellen Brown, thanks to Hillary Clinton's recently published emails. It was to prevent the creation of an independent hard currency in Africa that would free the continent from economic bondage under the dollar, the IMF and the French African franc, shaking off the last heavy chains of colonial exploitation

There you go.

Research the **** out of that if you doubt any of it.

Ukraine could well be viewed as an extension of the Syrian conflict actually if you think about it....

Cheers

Theres zero point in responding at this stage @Nordner - i tried to have a fruitful debate with you - and it now ends, with you seemingly posting a long text about Syria - and Libya - and gas pipelines - ??

You know i could speed type you a tonne of stuff one World War 2, Operation Citadel that led to the tank battle of Kursk - Hitlers General Plan East (a program planned for when Germany 'won' the war) - I could talk about the Red Army fighting in Stalingrad, or prior to that, the Siege of Odessa (where the Russian factory workers created an improvised Tank out of Tractor equipment)

It would be similar to the above text in two key ways

• its True
• its Irrelevant

In a conversation/debate about Russia invading the Ukraine - and your continual blaming of NATO - you posted the above text about natural gas, Libya, and Syria. And people are now scratching their heads - and asking the obvious question

Iv debated with you for a bit now, and yea. I invited it, and we had it out. And now we must agree to disagree.

You believe NATO is to blame/culpable for Russia invading the Ukraine - I believe you are wrong. As do quite a number of other people, so

Lets leave it there - I think you missed the point entirely but - C'est La Vie

Nato undoubtedly carries most of the blame for the outbreak of this war. That will become increasingly the accepted view as serious studies are carried out on the Russian invasion.

There are massive untapped Gas reserves in The Donbas. If exploited by Ukraine, this would be another challenge to Russian dominance in EU markets.

That is a fact. Look it up yourself.

The Syrian Civil War was mostly a war over 2 competing Gas pipelines planned to supply European markets.

The Shia pipeline and the Arab (Sunni) pipeline. Qatar lost out on gas sales and Saudis and Turks lost out on transit fees when Assad favoured the Shia pipeline. He was also made do this by Russia as Russia would be better able influence Iran than Qatar.

That is also a fact.

To suggest none of this has any bearing on the current conflict in Ukraine is disingenuous to say the least.

But you are so convinced of your own opinion that you will doubtless not bother to investigate this any further.

BTW your insistence that the US never intended to kill civilians in Iraq is completely irrelevant.

When you drop tons and tons of high explosives on densly populated cities, there is simply no way to avoid tens of thousands of civilian casualties.

While you are on your humanitarian high horse, have you any sympathy for the 100s of detainees in Guantanamo who have been there for almost 20 years in maximum security prison conditions without charge?

The only good Muslim is a.....

Yes there are huge gas reserves in the Donbas, there's also huge oil reserves in the sea off the coast of Crimea. Funny how, when a democratically elected government in Ukraine agrees a deal with Shell for exploration and extraction rights here the Russians suddenly annex these areas. It's glaringly obvious that this is a resource war shrouded in fundamentalism. The Ukranians were free to sell these resources to the Russians but chose not to, that is not a reason to then invade, pillage, destroy, kill and commit a litany of war crimes.

As for the rest of your post, I have no idea what it has to do with this thread.

Yes it's NATOs fault that Russia has been laying the foundations of the idea that Ukraine isn't a real country for over a decade. From Dugin in the 90's in Foundations of Geopolitics, to Zhirinovksy saying that Ukraine is Russia's business, it's their land, it's not a real country. To Putin's unhinged essays, including the one from last summer decrying the same and throwing Orthodoxy into it and claiming that the Ukranian Orthodox Chuch is illegitimate and that the Russian Orthodox Church is the true religious authority in Ukraine.

Sure, aye grand NATOs fault. Get a grip.