Ukraine (Mod Note & Threadbanned Users in OP)

Hungary is also in NATO iirc.

Erdogan is hardly any more 'democratic' than Orban.

To Nordner: Yes you are wrong on almost all except Russia should be given Crimea as a sop but the water remains turned off.

Now would you mind taking.down that Russian propaganda clip like a good chap

Let me call you naive.

You are suggesting that Putin would be happy to go along with that arrangement?

Wow,that was easy he would say .Let's take a short break and maybe there might be a little more real estate on the market in a while.

I remember a year or so ago ,one of Russia's politicians boasting out loud that they were going to march to Berlin...

Would be nice if some of their downed helicopters were so inscribed.

Would make a fitting image.

I always felt that the first victims of Nazism were the German people.Seems history does repeat.(pun intended)

@Nordner i think the others who have responded to you have highlighted the 'issues' surrounding the two involved in this clip. I would add that Jimmy Dore is a very weird individual. He was once associated with TYT who are Chomsky Fanatics - and since leaving (and a subsequent sexual harassment allegation), the man has devolved into the equivalent of Alex Jones.

Naturally he is going to use any and all resources to blame NATO for the war in Iraq, but beyond that. He is a walking and talking Post Truth Poster boy.

@Nordner I would imagine you (like me), look on conspiracy theorists as usually being whackjobs. Alex Jones, Qanon, Pizzagate, Covid/5G, Antivax - et al - absolute garbage. And i would imagine you are infuriated when someone voices this nonsense to you, as 'a valid opinion'. I know someone who all through 2021, messaged me to 'warn against the vaccine' - he then tried to tell me that I was a fascist, for agreeing that Un-vaxed people should have to wear masks indoors. He even compared this to NAZI treatment of the Jews

I would imagine that when you encounter people who talk like this - you, like I, label them in your head (Persona Non Grata, 'touched', nutjob, avoid-like-plague, that kinda thing)

Now, as difficult as it is for you to accept this; When you come here, parroting the 'NATO CAUSED THE UKRAINE WAR' thesis - a lot of people probably view you like the above conspiracy theorists and paddlers. In a week where we are now seeing the horrors of Bucha - when we have read a Russian Official News piece which reads like a Wansee Protocol (calling for the liquidation of Ukrainian Intellectuals, civilians who resist, and the De-Ukrainian-ization of Ukraine) -

You have come back with a clip of Jimmy Dore, Interviewing a Pro Russian Troll - as evidence that NATO is to blame? This is no different than my 'pal' digging up an interview with a 'scientist' claiming that Vaccines cause autism - its garbage -

I said it to you before @Nordner you are allowing

• Past serious failures of USFP
• The Iraq WMD Fiasco
• And a general antipathy toward Western Capitalism (i sympathize as a leftie)

To Warp your Mind.

You WANT NATO TO BE AT FAULT HERE - I would go as far as to say YOU NEED THEM TO BE CULPABLE, because in your mind they always are. You want this to be the case which is highlighting these nonsensical talking points, by irrational bad faith tools like the above. You find a video and it doesnt matter WHO is in it - if it blames NATO - sorted. Nato are to blame - see! i told you! NATO are at least partially responsible for this

They FACTUALLY ARE NOT -

Im happy to keep talking - cause i dunno - seeing some of your posts reminds me of yours truely in my late teens early twenties - I was VITRIOLICALLY anti USFP - and i am still highly critical - But one must temper criticism with facts - This is Russia's Fault - 100% - no room for interpretation any other way

FYI - Nothing i have said here was meant offensively - I just feel like im practically pleading with you at this stage - Happy to continue the debate, i dont think you are a Bad Faith debater, or a Putin bot - in fact i would bet everything i have that you are not -

But you are wrong - and you need to realize this- You are on the wrong side of this debate -

Putin, Lavrov, Peskov, Shoigu need to dangle at the end of a rope, precisely like the Nazi warmongers did in late 1945/early 1946.

Alas, I don't expect them even to face a court of justice. The best that might be hoped for is that they die in jail while on trial like Slobodan Milosovic.

amazing that Russia wants to occupy the area of Ukraine where huge reserves of oil and gas were discovered in the last 10 years.

Excellent analysis from Tomi T Ahonenen, a Finnish historian. He tries to deduce what Putin's plan A and plan B were in Ukraine - few hours and few days respectively.

Plan A was used in 1968 invasion of Czechoslovakia - Russian plane loaded with GRU/KGB agents requested emergency landing due "engine failure" at the Prague Airport, agents quickly secured the airport, then Antonov airplane loaded with special forces landed there, special infiltrator forces quickly captured the radio and TV stations, then Prague was quickly captured and the rest of the invasion was a breeze.

(3) Tomi T Ahonen Is Conan The Historian on Twitter: "Battle of Kyiv Thread 1/ The Battle of Kyiv was decisive battle in Ukraine War that Russia launced invading on Feb 24, 2022. Russian assault on Kyiv was catastrophic military failure, overwhelming victory for Ukraine Battle ended 31 March with total retreat This is summary https://t.co/yIgdleGHpr" / Twitter

You say Dore and Cos world view is simplistic and clueless. Yet, you demand that everybody 'choose a side'.

Why do we have to choose a side? Is that not simplistic and clueless in and of itself?

Reminds me of George W before invasion of Iraq saying, 'You are either with us....or you're with the terrorists.'

It was an idiotic statement back then and any similar sentiments in relation to Ukraine are similarly idiotic now as well.

For the record, I do not like Putin. I do not condone what Russian troops are doing in Ukraine either.Why would I? I

Russian foreign policy is a mirror image of Western foreign policy but without the window dressing.

That is just my opinion, if none of you agree with me, fair enough. But do not attempt to slander me as a Putin apologist and demand that I take sides.

I believe all our leaders are a shower of corporate stooges, beholden to big business and financial institutions. Just look at the revolving doors between government and corporate boards.

If Western leaders were serious about standing up to Russia and other rogue states around the world, then sanctions should have been put on them all many years ago.

But, no, we turn a blind eye to their shenanigans so long as its beneficial to our elites. The City of London, Wall Street and even the IFSC have been laundering money for evil fuckers from Russia, The Middle Eastern Oil Monarchies, Mexican drug cartels and every other fucker with buckets of ill gotten gains for decades at this stage, so spare me the lecture all of ye.

I think it is in the mix. Ukraine trades those resources to EU countries, those EU countries have no need of Russian resources. So Russia sees the prospects of loss of its revenue stream, while Ukraine prospers as a free nation - Russians see their Ukranian cousins in 'little Russia' race ahead of them in freedoms and opportunities. It is an existential threat to the type of Russia Putin has constructed.

People before Profit are not a Party - they are a Cult of Activists, Populists, and Ideologues

These people consider themselves

• Socialists (Makes my blood boil)
• In touch with ordinary working class people (gimme a break)
• And Anti War

What they actually are:

• GLORIFIED ACTIVISTS, without even a molecule of intelligence - They blame NATO for a conflict that NATO IS AVOIDING LIKE THE PLAGUE FOR FEAR OF NUCLEAR WAR
• POPULISTS - These people are cult-ish populists who will follow a perverse 'NATO BAD/ALL ELSE GOOD' policy - they will be UP IN ARMS the next time Israel and Palestine go at it - yet they refuse to applaud a man who is leading his people against a MILITARY INVASION IN THE 21st CENTURY
• IDEOLOGUES - They are entrenched in their own warped version of socialism - which bares NO RESEMBLANCE TO REAL CREDIBLE LEFT WING POLITICS

Im expanding on my post from CA btw

Sincerely these people are not credible politicians. It should be clear to everyone now, that PbP will never accomplish anything in the Dail. Where once i could have seen them possibly linking arms with other left wing groups, i actually believe this would be a mistake. These TD's are activists, and outrage addicts. They search for ways to keep their ideological ducks in a row. Given a general animosity to NATO and Western Capitalism, today's behavior was a no brainer for them. Of course, they couldnt applaud Ukraine. Ukraine exists in a horrendous reality, where NATO membership would be a godsend. PbP do not exist in reality, because as ideologues, they must 'bend reality' to fit it into their Narrow view of Good V Evil. Long ago, they became entrenched in their views of international actors. And rather than view the nature of the new reality, their ego enforced political ideology keeps them locked in place.

As for the possibility of PbP linking arms in a left wing coalition. A Mistake, and a disastrous one, which would be fatal to the task of breaking the FFG Duopoly. No question they would bounce and withdraw support at the first fence. Coalition building requires stability, flexibility, and acceptance of reality. Today, they PROVED beyond doubt, they are unable accept any of these.

To my Fellow Lefties

Please - for the love of sanity

Do not vote for these people again. There are plenty of credible Left Wing alternatives incl Labor, the SocDems, and even SF. I get that you want an end to FFG duopoly - i do too - but DONT WASTE YOUR VOTES ON THESE PEOPLE - they are activists - they sound wonderful giving speeches - but they ACCOMPLISH NOTHING - and in a moment of historical importance, they chose to 'protest' as opposed to applaud -

Never forget - and punish them by refusing them a preference - I always gave them preferences but i will never again do so. I implore you all to follow suit. And if you are willing, challenge their supporters to justify today's disgrace. Change minds.

@Nordner Im gonna respond to you later but for now

Russian foreign policy is a mirror image of Western foreign policy but without the window dressing. from your post

Please explain - in detail if you can- And by the way this a rhetorical request - anything you say to attempt to prove the above statement will be a warped view of reality - There is no equivalence between Russia and the West - the fact you think there is, only proves what i have been saying to you for weeks. Your morally confused position is based on long term animosity toward the west

Anyway - chat in a bit maybe