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The Coming World War

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Thats laughable.

    The Russian military will grind down ukraine. Putin is going nowhere



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,318 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    In as much as it’s possible to answer such a question what support is there for Putin in Russia generally and for this conflict?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,101 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Would it be an exaggeration to claim none at all? I don't think so. This is not like the Balkan conflict. There has been no hostility between Russia and Ukraine before Putin. The invasion makes no sense from a military point of view. Putin is a madman who wants to engage in war with the western world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    Yes, its the Russian public who are key to this, if the populace turn against him then i think the Army and Police will lose heart and follow suit (i hope)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,674 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout




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  • Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    all jokes aside - should the government be instructing RTE to play public info announcements about what to do during nuclear fallout?? i mean its not beyond the bounds of possibility



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,674 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    You were speculating about Putin nuking the NATO meeting in Brussels in another thread.

    No, they shouldn't be doing anything like that. That would create unnecessary panic for what is a very unlikely situation. Even in the unlikely scenario of a nuclear war we're all done for anyway so it's pointless even worrying about it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,233 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    We shall see. Russians will start moving again soon

    The fact that Ukraine is getting thousands of anti tank weapons and anti aircraft systems will help tip the balance a bit



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,440 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    The longer it goes on the better for Russia on the field. At a savage cost to them mind, there comes a point where that worm turns.


    They are not going to take Kiev. A million crack soldiers might not be able to at this stage. East of the Dneiper is still a option, though done by savagery and pounding everything to dust.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The longer it goes on is absolutely not good for Russia.

    It's not a question of gaining a foothold, its a question of more of their forces being destroyed, more conscripts being killed/captured/starved or deserting, more collapsing of command & control and logistics.

    Things are so bad for them now overall, that I doubt they have the strength to withdraw, let alone make progress.

    Look at these figures. Yes, they are from the Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs, but NATO are backing them.

    It's a living disaster for Russia, the problem for the World is whether somebody topples Putin and stops the madness, or they resort to WMDs.




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,233 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    If that is even half true it's a huge cost. If it's true they are in deep deep sh!t.

    25% of there more modern tanks. Maybe 10% of there APV's and probably the more modern ones. Helicopters and all the rest. You are probably looking at 3 billion+ in military hardware above.

    When you add in mutions used this war could be costing Russia maybe 200 million per day.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    And that is without even considering the daily precipitous descent by the billions into the red of the Russian economy. They will default on their sovereign debt any day. Their demand to be paid in roubles for international oil and gas exports, has been met with a sharp 'f**k you' and their domestic industries are laying off in the hundreds of thousands, for lack of materials and components.

    China has seen the damage that can be done by the withdrawal of western capital and technology and they will be in no mood to share the pain.

    So that leaves Vladimir, broke, friendless, humiliated. I would say paranoid, but it's all real.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,674 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    So that leaves Vladimir, broke, friendless, humiliated. I would say paranoid, but it's all real.

    And that makes him more dangerous than he has ever been. Bill Browder said about Putin that he can only escalate - he can never appear to be weak.

    At the very minimum he will try and do to other cities what he has already done to Mariupol - it's currently happening in Chernihiv in the far north. Even that sort of long range destructions needs resources though. If the war on the ground turns against him entirely I firmly believe he will stoop to any level - be that chemical, biological or even nuclear weapons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,233 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    I think the longer it goes on and the longer he fails at his objectives the more likely a coup against him. Whether that is through the Russian Parliament, the Army or by powerful individuals within the state is the question.

    A general uprising the s unlikely at present. At some stage high up individuals may decide enough is enough. His problem is that may mean a bullet in the head.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,426 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I think that the children of the oligarchs being educated outside Russia (in England, France, Switzerland, USA and elsewhere) should all be sent home to Russia with visas cancelled. This will put huge pressure on those parents, who might reconsider their loyalty positions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear


    The offset of that is that huge arms manufactureres (heres looking at you UK) will have a vested interest in this continuing. War is big business. But yes its a necessary evil to stop Russia in its tracks



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    War might be good business for specific arms companies, but it can be **** business for most other industries, corporations and companies due to higher oil prices, increased instability, negative market effects, increased costs of production, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 823 ✭✭✭Liberty_Bear




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    History would disagree with you.

    A wartime economy is a boom across the board. The United States wouldnt be the power it became between 1947 and 2000 without having built and won World War 2 in its factories and fields.

    War means full employment and lots of disposable income, and also quite a bit of carefree expenditure from people living in the moment.

    It also means a baby boom and an explosion in venereal disease, but that's another story.

    The real problem comes when the War ends and you have to carefully bring the stimulus carefully back to Earth. That's where deep recession can set in.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,800 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Indeed which is why I was careful to write "can be".

    Very familiar with the US transformation into a juggernaut, however worth mentioning that was WW2. Wars and conflicts have different scales and impacts. Arms companies benefit before, during and after conflicts, but it's important not to attribute them as the cause or driver of the conflict (via appeal to motive) when it's not the case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,674 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    The only reason the wartime economy was good for the USA was because, apart from Pearl Harbour, the war didn't happen on their soil.

    The only booming the European economies did was the explosions destroying their factories and infrastructure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Again, not so.

    Yes, there were areas like the Low Countries and French / German border as well as the Eastern Front where the conflict was constant and industrial capacity destroyed, but in Britain they were still churning out 30,000 planes and 300,000 vehicles per year as well as dozens of naval ships and millions of tons of artillery and munitions, even in the teeth of Nazi bombing campaigns of places like Coventry and Glasgow.

    The Soviets too produced armaments in the millions of tonnes all while at war, while the Nazis were no slouches themselves until the tide turned in the war and their capacity to refine raw materials and gather fuel was stopped in places like the Ruhr Valley.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,380 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    UK was broke after WW2 after borrowing all the money off the USA to buy those munitions, made in the good ol US of A.

    I'm sure Ukraine will eventually be paying for a lot of this assistance



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,233 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    That was more to do with still thinking they could maintain an empire.

    The Ukraine e will be flooded with western help after this the Marshall plan MK11

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Absolutely.

    And anything that isn't written off now will be packaged up as War bonds payable in 2122.

    Besides, with the demise of Russia's capacity to deliver energy and armaments to its client States in odd corners of the globe, there'll be a lot of crawling back to the West looking for kit to buy.

    The likes of South Africa and India are going to have serious humble pie to eat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,233 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Looks like Russia is looking for a way to withdraw. They are scaling back there demands.

    Look like tour opening assessment was completely wrong. The Russian army could not go through the gap of Dunloe not to mind the Suwalki gap.

    The West will be awake after this. Putin has done the exact opposite of what he planned. He unified the Western countries. Sleepy Uncle Joe was more than a match for him. His leadership was crucial

    There may well be three sphere's of Interest. The US will remain the main one. A reawakened Germany with France and the former Eastern block countries will lead the EU to become more if a military power.

    China will continue to develop but now realises it is still decades behind the West and the US in a military sense. Ukraine proved it not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog that matters.

    NATO never engaged the Russian but the military hardware that they supplied Ukraine is way superior to anything that Russia or China can being to the table.

    Putrid and the upper echelons of the Russian elite will have to crawl back into the home they came from.

    Biden will ranked in the second layer of great US presidents like Kennedy and Reagan

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,674 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    I don't want to derail the thread with a tedious back and forth about this but there's no way an economy booms overall during a war.

    A wartime economy is a boom across the board

    This was the statement of your that I took issue with. Sure England was churning out military equipment for the war effort but at the expense of the rest of the economy. That's why they had to ration everything else.

    War is a net negative for an economy:

    • Destruction of capital and infrastructure
    • Mass Production of things that are literally made to be destroyed themselves such as munitions
    • Massive loss of life of the very demographics who would otherwise be fueling the economy.

    The absolute best case scenario is what happened to the USA in WWII whereby they weren't really attacked so that they maintained their full industrial might and then had loads of markets to export their products into after the war. Even at they lost 400k people and the domestic population experienced rationing during the war.

    For most countries though they will need to spend years or decades rebuilding. War is a catastrophe economically.



  • Registered Users Posts: 18,069 ✭✭✭✭fryup


    ya i'm a bit paranoid kinda like Rodney in that famous episode of OFAH where he builds his fallout shelter 😙

    but i've got a feeling in my gut that this isn't going to end well and we should be preparing for the worst scenario



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Whatever the Russian version of a Daisy cutter is ,think Kyiv and Lyiv will be pounded by them in the next few days



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