"Nice Guys"

Therein lies the rub though. Society spends years telling them that that isn't the case. It just takes some of them a lot longer to figure it out. Of course they have to take responsibility themselves but they are fed that line for a long time.

The other side of the same coin is men who go overboard in treating women like sh1t. "Society" is blamed for that. It is equally to blame for these incel weirdos.

The mistake you're making there is in thinking that every man has to be either one or the other.

Here's something that could even generate sympathy for incels, it's that bad: https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/

Well, you just posted that if men aren't nice, then they must be shites, no? If not, what was the point of your post?

And again, there's a difference between "nice" and "predominantly nice".

The problem with "nice" (and this is women as well as men) is that they tend to be a passive and that gets boring after a while. You want a bit of daring at some point and that usually involves being "not nice" for a while - it can be daring or adventurous, even a bit wreckless.

"Not nice" is not an antonym for "****" or evil.

I came across that a while back, jaysus talk about an echo chamber, a loony one at that! But at the same time let them do them.

Can we get a definition of this "nice" please? Do they give half their income to charity or spend their spare time helping the homeless?

It's right up there with harmless as a word I wouldn't want a woman to describe me as.

FDS is a cesspit, where "entitled" women shout into an echo chamber that men should only approach them if they're millionaires and dont have a spine or do anything except fawn over them.

And also why would you not want to be considered nice? What's wrong with that exactly? One of the most harmless lads I know is married with twins on the way so it didn't work out too badly for him! He is a farmer though so maybe it was the road frontage that sealed the deal!

In relation to your second last paragraph, I think the issue with doing those things is that they don't work for those people. So they can hardly realistically keep thinking for ever they might. On the other hand, they are also the things that society "tells" them they should do. The weirdos obviously can't understand the nuance. Maybe society should teach them when they are still young - "listen, you should behave towards people generally, but if you act like this then don't expect to get any results". And I mean "expect" in two interpretations there.

It's like the reverse job interview - to get your foot in the door you might have to pretend to be a decent person and then to stay there and crawl your way up the chain you have to be a bit of a prick. You wanna get the girl - then you have to act like a bit of a prick to get your foot in the door and then you have to be a bit nicer as time passes to get "promoted" and stay in the job.

The issue with all these things is that they are wholly subjective and those fellas don't understand that and feel bitter and lied to. They think that they were taught a formula and rules but the formula doesn't work.

They should be taught that a partner might say that they want "x". It doesn't mean they just want "x". It means they want person "Y" and for "Y" to do "x" for them. The girl who is complaining that her boyfriend doesn't do "x" doesn't mean that they just want someone else who does "z" instead

The thing about the friend zone is that people wind up there not because the women isn't attracted, it's because they don't make a move early enough and by the time they do it's too late. It's not the same thing as making a move, getting rejected, accepting it and still maintaining a platonic friendship.

The rest of your post Id agree with. It's pretty much what I've been saying (although yours is a bit clearer).

Why bother replying if you're not going to Actually address any points? Maybe I shouldve made myself more clear in my first reply but honestly I thought it was implicit what I meant. In what way am I claiming the opposite?

I must of lived a very different life to many here. I just didn't hang around trying it on with people in my immediate group. Once past the age of 13 my friends including the females were that. I wasn't trying to be nice to them to get with them I was just nice to them as friends. Then I used to go out to hook up with people at teen discos or other social events. Never got friend zoned as I always felt it was a mutual decision.

The majority of those who are Incel are likely a mixture of metal health and/or social issues. It is a genuine issue for many disabled people without any such issues as they have to avoid people with fetishes and find genuine connection along with some members of the public ignoring their sexuality and see it as them being taken advantage of.

The fact is some women are nasty to men at times and exploit them. If as a heterosexual man you never had a women ask,expect, demand free drink just to talk to her I would be surprised. To somebody with little to no social skills that may seem like a genuine connection. Reality girl just wants a free drink. I think if you fall for it and then find out you have a right to be annoyed. There is a guy here going on about how he was happy for his perceived wealth meant he was attractive which is just a person happy with being exploited. Toxic femininity is a thing.

Nice guys are unattractive sexually because they tend to have poor boundaries, people pleasing behavior at the cost of self respect, yes men types, and lots of avoidance mechanisms when it comes to conflict. Its not sexy.

They are wonderful people to have as friends, and likely even partners in a long term sense.. however they fail to invoke sexual attraction in most women pre 35 years old. After spending their whole lives being told that all the qualities they have cultivated are the right ones, but then failing to meet their needs through them while the opposite is being sexually rewarded, it very much makes sense they become resentful.

I spent a lot of time in the nice guy zone, and therefore friend zone. I have autism and learning behaviors is a very cognitive process for me. My mirroring ability is next to zero. I could easily see the complete opposite of those traits seem to be more sexually rewarded, but i couldn't understand how to be a good person at the same time if i give up these nice traits.

It took me a lot of time to realize that sexual attractiveness is based more on animalistic, conflict orientated behavior that demonstrates many self progressive traits even at the cost of others (but not aimed towards harming others). eg: Strong boundaries even when it means others don't get their needs met because of those boundaries. A woman may be angry at you because of it, but the attraction will increase versus if you have a weak boundary. Honest opinions that show you don't care if others approve of you when it comes to the cost of your honest opinion, hiding yourself is a weak trait and very unattractive in a mate. Jerks appear to get more success in dating not because they are jerks, but because they were willing to have fun, lead a situation, stand up for themselves, protect themselves and care for number 1.. These are positive attributes for a strong partner. They CAN manifest as jerk behaviors but that's usually in teens or early adults.

Of course, Our sexuality develops during our teen and early adult lives, so it often keeps being attractive to these traits without much thought. If they make a person sexually turned on thinking about you, thats who that person is going to date, not the nice guy who might be a great partner but doesn't turn the woman on.

Nice guys have a lot to learn from the men they label as jerks. They have a lot to learn about dropping the misguided morality they adhere to, and they have a lot to learn about how women are attracted to what they find attractive, not what the nice guy thinks is good for them. The people they find attractive, also possess many nice guy traits.. they just aren't ruled by them.

Its a confusing journey for men to be told one thing is better/right/good and then to completely experience a reality that contradicts, and when you complain about it.. to have your sexuality and social position attacked. I suspect its equally confusing for women to be attracted to a certain set of traits but knowing that those traits are often unbalanced to such an extent that a relationship tends to be conflict orientated/broken.

What you said just made me think of a friend of mine.

Ever since school he has not been abloe to get a girlfriend. He was a virgin until he got married about 10 years ago.

He was always very nervous around women for sure. And never ever said the right thing in any situation.

I remember times when he was crying to me about how he wanted a girl to like him, and then other times he would be saying he hates them and doesnt understand why anyone wants to be with a girl for the rest of their lives. He eventually got over it, met a lovely girl and got married and has kids.

But back to the point of the story. Myself and himself and 2 other guys met up for a pint in the Dublin city center a few years ago. And we were sitting at a table and these 4 girls came in. Came over and started flirting with us. And the other 3 of us were lapping it up and having a laugh. He stands up and says to them that we were all married and they didnt have a chance with us. Anyway we had a bit of craic with the girls for a few minutes before they moved on to the next guys.

So my friend says to us, how could we be flirting with those girls we were married and we should have just been honest with those girls.

This is when we had to explain to him how to read a social situation. The situation was.

4 girls 2 wearing wedding rings come in with a few drinks on them and start flirting with 4 guys sitting at the table beside them. The guys have the craic and flirt back. 3 of the guys know the girls arent interested in them but are looking for us to buy them a few drinks, so we continue to flirt with that situation in mind, until the girls realize they arent getting drinks off us and move on to the next ones.

He was totally unaware and couldnt understand this was happening at all, even when we explained what was happening to him afterwards. Some people just cannot read a situation and i think thats where his problems all his life have come from. He somehow, having not being able to attract more than one girl all his life, thought that all of a sudden a group of girls wanted to shag him and his 3 mates. He was so sure of it that he intervened to save all our maraiges.

If our wives were sitting in that bar they would have been watching the situation unfolding from a distance and laughing their heads off at what we were doing. Even they would have thought it was great fun.